Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

[Woolmark]

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

Back Do you believe that truth can exist that is beyond our understanding?

I do.

There are lots of areas in science that are beyond my understanding.

But this is simpler than that.

There's a baby.
There's god.
God stamps the baby to death.
Do you cheer god or not?

Are you saying we, or perhaps you, don't know enough to decide if that is right or wrong?

I wouldn't cheer, I would weep.

But I do not attempt to judge God.

If you want to believe that everything written in the Bible is the literal word of God then you are in good company with the fundamentalists but not the majority of Christians.

The rest of us are trying to live in relationship with a Jesus and it isn't easy as the focus of our faith is a person not a book and the book we have is of its time and culture and all Christians have to interpret the best they can

So back to organising Christmas carol concerts where God came to meet humankind in the most vulnerable way possible as a baby of a woman who should have been stoned as she had a baby out of wedlock. Her husband was courageous enough to stand by her as he listened to God's messenger, an angel. The point of the shepherds story which is enacted in schools and churches all over the country is that God came for the poor. The shepherds were the despised and lowest of the low yet they were the ones that saw the Messiah first. The kings were not Jews so their part of the story is to say that the Messiah is for everyone.

Oh, and as I have said previously, I am rather stuck on the question of whether I believe literally.

This is because I believe our language contains analogy, metaphor, allegory, symbolism etc right down to it's very roots, in it's etymology.

Also I believe life itself contains similar symbolism. Jesus is described as the author and finisher of our faith.

So I just say I believe, and will answer questions to the best of my ability. The faults in my answers I will claim as my own.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts I'm an atheist so I know it's invented,
but it makes a difference to me if my neighbours believe these things are acceptable.

I get that to you most of the bible is fiction - including it seems the commandments , but if you claim any of it is true that supports those who claim it is all true. Who say that morals don't matter if god says 'do this'. That we are not wise enough to decide for ourselves.

I prefer your version, but if those who only really believe in a stable and a baby stopped giving credibility to the fundamentalists they would be seen as what they are.
You help them by lending them an air of respectability. Someone meets you and thinks "See christians are kind and decent. So I'll send my kids to church and tell them that god is real and must be trusted".
You help support the idea that thoughts that come into your head may be put there by baby jesus and another christian says "yeah I get those thoughts too. They tell me that like the bible says I must abuse or kill gay people and witches".

If not for the nice 'christians' saying it's true and talking about religious tolerance there'd be some chance of dealing with people like that.

So what would you do with the 'nice' Christians Back?

Do you not agree to allowing people religious freedom, even at the belief level? How would you police our thoughts? Who would judge whether they were correct?

I wouldn't describe the bible as 'fiction' though, BackOnlyBrieflly. I'd describe it as history, as poetry, as prophecy, as recount. As a long emerging understanding of who God is and God's character. As written by a multiplicity of authors over thousands of years, and so if we are to read it we are to read it while understanding something of the where, who, how and why of it.

So one section will describe the passover or Jericho, and another how child sacrifice is repellant to God, and how God is merciful and loving. It is hard to reconcile the God of these passages, with all the mental gymnastics of the world we cannot twist these around. But there are ways in which to gain greater understanding of what they actually meant to the person writing and the people they were written for, which can help us understand and apply them. This doesn't mean we have to a/ agree that God killed babies and that's fine, or b/say it's all a work of fiction/metaphor so it doesn't matter anyway. No. It's our job to grapple with the scriptures and work out what God was saying through them, and use our knowledge of who Jesus is to balance some of the OT passages.

I don't have this all sorted. I don't have neatly packaged answers. Some of it is taken on faith, yes, but that isn't a kind of 'oh it's too big so I'm just going to ignore it lalalala' kind of faith. More a personal experience of who God is and a knowledge of who God is through what Jesus has done which makes me able to come to such passages and say 'hey, I don't know. But I can still grapple, and I can still know God is good.' I do realise this is not enough, I honestly do get this. It wouldn't be for me either, if not for the consuming knowledge of God and the work God does in lives today, and the utter freedom that knowledge and experience brings. How can I reconcile it, how can I balance this all? The answer is, actually, I can't, always. I have questions! I don't squish my intellect in order to justify my faith, but I do have faith anyway, while knowing there are things I am just not going to be able to know or reconcile at this time.

It's not an easy faith to hold, sometimes, no. Hence the doubts referred to earlier. But it's life giving and hopeful and wonderful in its complexity and in its simplicity.

I do not attempt to judge god

But god was happy for you to make a judgement of his character when you were swayed by the fluffy bits and decided to become a Christian didn't he? If you weren't ever supposed to judge him you wouldn't have been able to decide believe in him. Are you actually saying that once you believe in him you will not make a moral judgement on any of his actions. Not even stamping on a baby?

Funny how it's the horrid bits that somehow need to be interpreted and seen through a different context. But the nice bits are all literal and can be taken at face value

I know there are nice bits, but as I said yesterday they don't cancel out killing babies do they?

head I decided to commit myself further to Christianity as a rejection of what I saw as bad in this world. I was going through a very challenging time and I could see no rational way out. I believe being closer to God was my Salvation in this world as well as the next. It offered me Hope, when not much else did.

However I also would say that I did always believe in God at some level from being a very small child.

It is not the same for anyone, but this is my experience.

Dutchoma, do you mind if I ask how you know this ?
(your first post on this thread)

God is the potter. We are the clay.

But how are you a human being to talk back to God "Shall what is formed say to the one that formed it "why did you make me like this"?

The second paragraph should be in quotes form the bible. They are not my words.

what I saw as bad I the world

Yes, you saw things happening that, even before you were a Christian, you knew were bad, because those things, be it murder or rape etc hurt people. But now, you read about a god killing babies and decide that it's exempt?

Primarily, the bad I saw was lack of Hope head.

If he didn't want pots that talk or think he shouldn't make pots that have brains and mouths. And he'd better not say 'look at me, I'm full of love and morally superior than you, apart from when I'm killing babies, just don't think about that'.

^that was what made me commit myself further to Christianity.

X post.

In theory. I don't think it is in practice though, I mean a lot of shit happens to a lot of lovely people and it can't all be down to free will can it?

octo The bad is also because of The Original Sin of Adam and Eve, we (through our free will) allowed Satan to have access to us.

^ 'we' referring to the human race.

So two people messed up and the rest of us are paying for it basically?

Adam and Eve decided to go against the will of God and eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

The sad irony is that once they had done that and had knowledge, they realised they had made themselves corrupt, by going against God, which is evil. Before that point they were good. So they tried to hide from God because they were ashamed.

The corruption passed down the bloodline of human kind, as they reproduced.

Full Reconciliation with God and full Redemption comes through Christ.

OK, so Adam and Eve went against God's will so did God decide that he was going to punish them and the rest of humans for all eternity or was it that the devil managed to get to them first?