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Original poster

Is the Christian God's love unconditional?

902 replies

Woolmark · 20/11/2013 19:57

Ok, some questions which have been playing on my mind, I am genuinely interested.

Surely his love is on the condition that you are a) a Christian and b) follow his rules?

Also, if God loves everyone as much as he does, why can't he save everyone by simply appearing to them? If I could save my children by doing this then I would in an instant, rather than turning up at the end and destroying the ones who weren't Christian.

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 02/12/2013 11:56

Msmiggins: it might, I hope, interest you to know that far more women were condemned to death where witch trials were handled by the state and secular authorities; where they were run by the church (ie in Catholic Europe) very few were executed, and there were far fewer witch trials. In any case, the number of witch trials as a whole was much less than used to be thought, and the number of witches actually executed (mostly by hanging in Britain and Europe) was far fewer. Historical research into the witch trials has busted quite a few myths about a holocaust of women murdered in the name of Christianity -- myths which, unfortunately, are still hanging around.

msmiggins · 02/12/2013 14:27

I can assure you that the hundreds of women executed in my city were firmly persecuted by the church.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 14:41

Capsium, so the mechanism that god used to punish the sons, and grandsons, and great grandsons for the sins of their father, their grandfather or even their great grandfather (seem unfair in the extreme) also inadvertently caused intergenerational suffering for victims of war or rape or famine and so on. Bit of a bum note for a loving god on all counts really.

capsium · 02/12/2013 15:06

head The message of hope I take from this is that it is not a 'done deal' so to speak, there is Redemption through Christ.

There are many difficult aspects to the OT. It is brutal. But then so is warfare, crime and punishment, Martial law and our history generally.

We are corrupted through original sin. Sin is bad, it is against God. God is good, we were designed to have communion with Him. Without communion with God, things can get nasty but we have to choose Him. He won't force Himself on us.

But even in the Old Testament God blessed those that loved and wanted Him.

capsium · 02/12/2013 15:16

If you look at Pagan Societies they weren't particularly more peaceful....

headinhands · 02/12/2013 15:26

It's not that there are brutal things in the OT, it's that it was god doing it. As for being kind to those that love you, that's not difficult, most of us do that without thinking about it.

How about how god treated those that didn't love him, like drowning the whole world. My husband is good to me but if I found out he was drowning people who didn't like him, that would negate his niceness somewhat. That would make him a very sick bunny who needed locking up.

capsium · 02/12/2013 16:17

I think the thing is that without God, the people were getting more and more degenerate.

It is hard to reconcile, I know.

capsium · 02/12/2013 16:19

And they were degenerate. Fallen Angels had bred with humans.

capsium · 02/12/2013 17:17

Actually I'm not sure about the Fallen Angels bit. It was something I'd glebed from somewhere and half remembered. On rereading the passage I remember that was referred to, it is not that clear. So apologies if that is misleading.

However it is clear that the people were very corrupt.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:07

I don't see how that justifies his brutality? What about the innocent children that also got drowned etc? And you're right about it being hard to reconcile, I can't, hence have decided it's clearly historical musings.

Take for example the bit where the Holy Spirit goes through the Egyptian settlement and deliberately kills the first born male of every family, even the animals, in a bid to force Pharaoh to release the Israelites. Why not just kill the Pharaoh? Or magically move the Israelites somewhere over night? In my book that's out and out terrorism. Killing the most vulnerable and innocent to get at the leaders.

Doesn't that strike you as a very human mechanism? I suspect some sort of severe flu like illness swept through the Egyptians and that's how it was recorded by the Israelites or some such thing. But a loving super being who can create an entire universe with words? I don't think so.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:08

Yeah I knew a Christian who thought some of us were half human half satan/demon or whatever. And that was one of his more sensible views!

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:13

If they were degenerate, because they were genetically offspring of satan, would they still be responsible for their actions, wouldn't they just be acting how they were meant to act?

Would it be moral for us to drown people who we thought were less moral than us?

Another thing to ponder, if they were all so heinously depraved, how did they manage to successfully raise so many offspring? All those night feeds? Takes the patience of a bloody saint!

BackOnlyBriefly · 02/12/2013 18:19

Not to mention - if I can just throw this in - that god made sure Pharaoh wouldn't let them go. It says it 3-4 times.

Exodus 4:21, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.”

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:23

And then said to the Israelites something like 'look how nasty I can be, you wouldn't want to piss me off would you!' (Exodus 15v26)

capsium · 02/12/2013 18:24

I don't know.

I was brought up in a farming community and I liken it to the foot and mouth outbreak.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:31

So you don't think it was the Holy Spirit killing them?

capsium · 02/12/2013 18:34

Didn't say that head. The farmers had to slaughter all their animals and they were burnt in big pyres. Nobody was very happy about it, to say the least.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:35

Sorry how does that relate to this part of the OT? Are you making a comparison? In what way?

capsium · 02/12/2013 18:39

Well the farmers cared for their livestock and were terribly upset they had to slaughter them to stop a terrible disease spreading just as God sent the flood, to stop the people degenerating any further. I doubt He was happy about that either.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:44

See that's what I find so offensive and scary about the justifications Christians use for the OT. It's all about dehumanising the victims. Somehow they deserved it. Somehow it wasn't as bad as if it happened tonight in your town. It's all about downplaying the humanity of the Egyptians or the Canaanites or the Amalekites or anyone else who god was sticking it to.

It's never right or good to dehumanise an entire race/group. It's disgusting and something no one on here would promote in their day to day lives. But somehow when they read about it in the bible it's okay. And the moral reasoning that you use everyday to decide that genocide and child murder is wrong gets circumvented because it was god that was doing it. The same god who you think expected you to use your own sense of right and wrong to become a Christian and yet here you are justifying utter utter evil. How can you do that?! How did I do it?!

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:46

So your reasoning is that it was the equivalent of slaughtering animals? See my previous post. Hmm

capsium · 02/12/2013 18:51

I don't agree with de-humanising either. It was an analogy because God is superior to us.

I think animals feel emotions too, so cannot dismiss their lives so easily. Have you ever seen this? (about an Ape who could use sign language)

headinhands · 02/12/2013 18:57

So if god is morally superior why do we find the OT so morally disgusting? Do you not see the glaring contradiction there?

capsium · 02/12/2013 18:59

There are some very difficult parts in the OT. Yet we have to make some very difficult choices in life sometimes...

That is all I can say.

headinhands · 02/12/2013 19:04

If a human behaved like that we would not find him morally superior or advanced would we? So how are we to decide god is morally perfect if his actions are judged to be vile.