Any other atheists around?

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

Is there a group for us atheists to discuss ideas of faith, morality, life, the universe and everything (42!)?
Note: I would not want this to become about dissing people of faith and would truly welcome discussion with anyone. This isn't about ridiculing anyone. I would be particularly interested in sharing ideas and discussing the social, anthropological, philosophical, political and psychological aspects of religion from an atheist point of view. Anyone else? I can provide and and .

Is THIS you, Muswell? 'Fess up, now.

I'm another pagan atheist MOG

I think you have explained it beautifully. I think for me one of the differences between being pagan and not is that it puts us firmly in nature, and helps us to maintain an awareness of the cycles of nature of which we are part, cycles which are reflected in our own lives.

Content aethiest signing in.

The word 'pagan' literally means dweller in the countryside, or rustic country person. There isn't much evidence of it being used pre-christianity, but it identified those who generally practised their local traditions. It came to mean anyone with non-christian practices, but really it was a way of separating the more cosmopolitan urbanites from the bumpkins with their strange ways!

I say that as a bumpkin with some strange ways!

Now of course it is an umbrella term for all manner of different beliefs, but mostly nature-based practices. Some of these include beliefs in gods and goddesses as literal entities, some believe in a spiritual dimension but not in any gods, and others in no kind of supernatural stuff at all, simply that nature is awesome. It is perfectly possible to be a pagan atheist.

The thing, though, MoG is that the minute we start talking about spells & magic, we are actually saying something that's simply not true - that there's a supernatural agency at work.

Perhaps an analogy is that you see talking about spells rather than just psychological effects is rather like dressing up the placebo effect as homeopathy?

TBH I think the disagreement about what 'witch' or 'spell' does or doesn't mean is mainly down to a different definition of terms - Mrsmuggins has defined what she means in non-supernatural terms, I'm happy to take her word that's what she means by it and not insist that its got anything much to do with other definitions, and absolutely nothing to do with what might be meant by the term in Nigeria. Words can mean different things to different people - on this thread we've already touched on that with 'materialism' and 'pagan'. Does that make any sense?

Well, life becomes hard & communication next to impossible if we start making up our own definitions of words.

Magic means the supernatural. If you don't mean the supernatural, then use a different word - then nobody gets confused.

Words shouldn't mean different things to different people. Materialism has one definition and is misused, this doesn't actually mean that it has more than one meaning.

And Pagan, as we've seen, is an umbrella term for many different belief systems. Some Pagan beliefs I would be personally dismissive of, others not.

But, OK, since we're making up our own definitions of words - my definition of atheist is "someone who doesn't believe unsupported, nonsensical twaddle". So msmiggins is not an atheist.

But that would be silly. I don't make up my own definitions of words.

I agree with you Hettie I think talking about magic and talking about spells is daft, and can cause way more harm than good. I posted a little quickly earlier as I had to run out the door, but what I was trying to say (not very well) was that "magic" is nothing more than psychology dressed up, and a bit of a pointless word to use.

I get why people want to use it, I guess it makes the world seem more exciting, but I think the human mind is amazing enough not to need glitzy silly terms to make it exciting!

Can I just come back to this? Muswell asked "Is it acceptable for rational, skeptic, atheists to employ symbolism in their lives?"

I would say YES, because that is exactly how I employ it. I use some Buddhist symbolism, and whatever other symbols I fancy, as psychological tools. I'm perfectly aware of what I'm doing; I choose my symbols as I go along, making them up as often as I borrow from the world around me.

In 12-step programmes, here in Britain at least, it's made clear that the "higher power" represents the sense that one is not alone (addicts tend to feel that their substance/behaviour is their only friend.) Adopting the concept of a higher power allows you to switch out of the mindset that it's you against the world, making it possible to be more open and to accept support. I was one of the millions who swap the word 'god' for 'universe'. Many hardened alcoholics use an empty bottle as their symbol

These days, I follow the principles of The Compassionate Mind, an amalgam of neuropsychology and buddhism, with the buddhism providing an appropriate set of ready-made symbols and principles. I have a Young Buddha carving as my "compassionate image" - a reminder - and use a buddhist forgiveness prayer when I'm feeling hateful. This doesn't mean I'm a buddhist, neither do I feel I'm praying to any entity outside myself. They're reflective tools.

I sometimes use the words soul and spirit, to represent the core of a person's psyche, character, and emotions. I don't believe people have some additional, non-physical self; the words are just widely-understood representations of a person's inner psychology. It annoys me when people say I'm 'spiritual' or even 'a good christian', because I'm neither of those things but it sparks the wrong discussion if I say so! A lot of religious followers assume no-one can be Good without following their religion - this is so glaringly untrue, it seems a remarkably unforgiving belief.

I'm coming to this a bit late, and having read the thread I am enjoying the discussion (even if some of the ideas and concepts might take me a while to get my head round as I haven't engaged in any debate or real thinking about this before)

This is a bit off the current direction of thread so apologies for just throwing a random post into the mire.

As someone who does not believe in any god or supreme being or deity or anything other worldly, I find it increasingly hard to share my thankfulness for life with other people. I miss this about church- I had a Christian childhood and the being together bit, acknowledging the good aspects of our lives and hoping collectively for better things for humanity in trying to lead good lives is what's missing for me. We live in an area with a number of well attended churches and I have many friends who are staunch Baptists- whilst I am comfortable and confident that my lack of religion is accurate (for me) I do envy them their beliefs. There just isn't anywhere other than a church to go to when you want to be with other people who feel the same sense of luck and awe at the world. The Sunday Assembly thing seems halfway there but not "me" still- I don't know how to find somewhere that my non-beliefs but strong values fit.

Does anyone else understand what I mean?

Cross-posted with you, MOG :)

"magic" is nothing more than psychology dressed up ... the human mind is amazing enough not to need glitzy silly terms to make it exciting!

Yes, this!!!

Yes Sick that makes sense to me, I feel that way sometimes. I know I've occasionally tried to join Pagan groups looking for that feeling, but I do tend to clash (or at least get annoyed with) the woo-Pagans. So find it's easier just being alone, but it can get lonely.

Sick, I sometimes go to church for that! Very rarely, though. Are you in America? I think it's probably harder to find like-minded people there, although you would certainly find hordes of them sharing online. There are some 'secular church' movements but, as far I've seen (not far), they get derailed by people pushing various agendas.

You could try a buddhist group?

Is THIS you, Muswell? 'Fess up, now.

Lose the 'tache and that's me.

I'm in the UK garlic. A very sparsely populated area which means that there isn't a lot of choice around! Will look up Buddhist groups though, thanks for tip.

Yes MoG it can be a bit lonely- and I think part of what I'm looking for is that sense of togetherness, which only brings into sharp focus the sense of there being nobody else that feels this way. I'm sure however that if I started talking to other folks there would be some like minded people about- just not the sort of conversation that naturally crops up in the office or the school gate... (Well not in rural Herefordshire anyway :)

I don't feel lonely in other aspects of my life thankfully, just in this "spiritual" area - that's the wrong word but can't think of another to describe it! For the foreseeable I will continue being grateful and saying my thank you's to the universe when I'm on my own in the car like I do at the moment :)

I'm in rural Herefordshire Not sure I'm up for a gratitude fest atm, but you're not alone! Actually there are loads of pagans round here - you must have seen that green man everywhere? (He's a tree symbol, not an actual green person ...)

You spelt it wrong ... Urrfrdshurr, innit.

I've tried to call myself "rational" rather than "atheist" before, for the exact reasons cited in that site linked to by YoniRotten and in the Sam Harris quote provided by HettiePetal.

I've been given a very hard time for this, both on here (under my old name) and on Facebook. I posted about it using the terms "rational" and "irrational" on Facebook and got a bit of a gentle broadside from Christian friends (which was then passively-aggressively "Liked" by the spouse of one of them).

So what's the answer? They genuinely seem to think believing in God is not irrational. Where do I go from here?

There are so many questions I want to ask Christians, but so many of them involve beating my head against the desk and usually end up with me citing one of these !

Can you not just let them believe whatever they want? For me being an atheist has no requirement to convince others of my non-belief in christianity.

Why is it so important to you to try and convince them that you are right and they are wrong? That's a genuine question by the way, trying to understand.

Garlic you know my manor well

Words shouldn't mean different things to different people. Materialism has one definition and is misused, this doesn't actually mean that it has more than one meaning.

ma·te·ri·al·ism

noun 1.
preoccupation with or emphasis on material objects, comforts, and considerations, with a disinterest in or rejection of spiritual, intellectual, or cultural values.

1. the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.

It has two very distinct meanings. The previous dictionary defs I gave for 'pagan' are quite different. 'Magic' has a conventional non-supernatural definition, ie conjuring as in 'Magic Circle' . I would agree that Mrsmuggins identification as a 'witch' is liable to be misinterpreted and cause confusion but historically it would have been women practising herbology and headology so I personally don't find it too hard to accept a non-supernaturalist identifying as such.

The definition of atheist is more straightforward: 'a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.'... the rejection of unsupported twaddle is perhaps better covered by something like 'rationalist'.

DOI - I've found that some of the Christians I've encountered (IRL and on MN) accept that faith is by definition not rational, but that they are rational in other aspects of their lives. So setting up a dichotomy of 'rational' versus 'irrational' as a way of labelling people doesn't tend to work out well.

Wouldn't it be irrational to use rational thinking in the rest of your activities if you are absolutely convinced that irrationality is the correct way to handle the most important subject in the universe?

Even if someone found a way to turn their judgement off and on I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time. I mean it would be irrational to use that ability at all.

Eh, Back?

Are you saying you don't trust religious people to tell you the time?

I don't see religions as at all unreasoning. Sure, there are plenty of unreasoning people in religions, but they also have brilliant scholars & historians working with them. They base their practice on an assumption I find untenable. It doesn't mean their intellect is faulty. I'm pretty sure some of our greatest scientific geniuses will turn out to have based their conclusions on false assumptions, too - in fact, contemporary science borders very closely on the philosophical. We all know philosophers can rarely agree!

BOB - I know what you mean, but the fact is that through some sort of cognitive dissonance or compartmentalisation they do seem to be able to function this way - for instance there are people doing proper science who are also theists.

I think almost everyone has a level of compartmentalisation in their lives, I suffer from mental illness and so some areas I am deeply irrational in, but that doesn't mean that I am irrational in all areas of life.

I think it's best not to completely write someone off based on one viewpoint, if they show other illogical/irrational viewpoints then that's a different matter.