Praying

[technodad]

I know this has been discussed as part of other threads before, but the recent news articles discussing the fact that "everyone" is praying for Nelson Mandela has got me thinking about it again.

Why do people pray?

Clearly there are many people across the world who pray, from the rich Monarchy, to the African child dying from Malaria. Some people pray that they will get a parking space close to the supermarket, others that their daddy won't abuse them, and some that they will survive the night. Yet, sadly, children are still abused, and die, whilst fortunate people like me don't have to walk far to the shops.

So, since it is evident that if prayer does work, then it doesn't work in the way people think it should, then why do people do it. Is it:

a) Because people think it does work in a simple "ask and you shall get" sort of way, even though they see poor African children on TV breathing their last breath, which provides overwhelming evidence that it doesn't? (these people can't all be uneducated and stupid, so why think it?)

b) Because the act of praying and belief gives them an inner strength to continue with life despite it's hardships and they genuinely don't believe it will work (this seems a contradiction to me)?

c) Because people don't think about it in a conscious way and the un-thinking habit produces a reduction in stress (like clicking the end of a pen, or biting ones finger nails)?

d) I don't know what else? any other thoughts?

Also, what are people praying for with Mandela? Do they want him to survive for ever (they seem to)? Or are they praying that he will pass peacefully to "heaven" when he does finally pass? Since he is regarded as such a saviour, then surely he is guaranteed a pain free route and pride of place, so why does everyone need bother?

I would be interested in the views of any faith, or those of none equally.

Techno

Yams - but how can you be confident that you are a Christian then? To take the examples I gave earlier, what if you are completely mistaken about the nature of god, Jesus and heaven? If you think there is one truth, then there is a fair chance that it is not what you believe it to be.

If you take that passage to be a truth, it amazes me that there are very few Christians who have the slightest notion that they may not be Christians at all.

ellie, forgive me, but that's the wrong way around. It's a relatively modern idea, to take the Bible literally. For most of Christian history it wasn't even thought of. Medieval people didn't, as you must know! And neither did the early Church. It is really only post-Reformation that people even began to think about it.

It's really not the be-all and end-all.

I would point out that cherry-picking a single text (eg. re slavery) is a very different thing. But I'm not sure if that second bit of your post was a separate idea or not, so won't labour the point.

thistle how can it possibly be for people to self determine what makes a member of s group? How about if I chose to be a member of the group 'atheists' and you say do I believe in God and I say yes so you would say (rightly) I could not be an atheist.

techno maybe God knew (being omnipoint) that we would make out choice to do things wring so that is what cocked things up world-wise.

I know all this stuff (that I am spouting) is not new to atheists so why be surprised when I say it. Ellie sorry if so am coming across as 'snarky'. I am frustrated. You seem ti want (not just you but this is my feeling) to ask what we think, make fun of it, accuse us of lack of intelligence or reason, saddle our faith with all the ills in the world and then be surprised when we don't drop our faith. I love the fact there are lots of denominations and I am happy ti acknowledge other Christians as sister and brothers. But there things that identify Christians the Trinity. I will (maybe- shock you to say I agree with Richard Dorking that.maybe some in west identify themselves as Christian without really meaning or understanding it. There is a part of identity that is self determined but just growing up in the west does not make you s Christian

techno sorry TYPO I meant to say I do not thinkk God intended the world to contain these bad things.Ellie apologies accept. Now get back yo that kitchen!!!

Italian. If you read Genesis 6 v 5-8, you will see that God was sorry that he had made humankind.

Thistle - a person should know themselves.
To be a Christian, you have to sorry to God for the things you have done wrong, and believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
If you do not go back on these things, then you know you are a Christian. How good a one, is up to Jesus to decide when you die.
A person who is a false prophet would I would have thought, have no doubt whatsoever that they are a wolf in sheeps clothing.

ah Italian, that is better!

That is better re the typo.

I do think though that you are not really getting where Ellie is coming from.

Yes sorry yammy apologies that was a typo. God made the world and it was good. That is what I believe.

yams - but I always think, with that sort of reference, that saying God regretted making humankind is simply putting something into terminology we can dimly understand. I don't believe God is a human-like entity who creates something and then thinks 'whoops, I feel bad about doing that now'. God is outside time, so the chronology could not apply.

But I think phrasing it as Genesis does helps us to understand, because we can relate to that emotion of regret and sadness.

I think for me it goes back to what praying is for - we're trying so hard to think about things that are beyond our comprehension, and sometimes we end up expressing ourselves in ways that are not perfect, because 'not perfect' is the best we can do. Prayer is a way to try to communicate, but it isn't perfect.

But maybe you all have a back history on here?

The trouble is with defining who or what is a Christian, is that there are no objective criteria against which one can make that assessment. There is no absolute truth.

There are many Christians who have a very strong faith, for whom worship and living their life according to the bible is probably stronger for them than many people in the UK. They have a passionate belief that they are good Christians and are following the word of god.

Yet they go around persecuting and literally physically attacking people for being gay.

You would say that they are not Christian, but for all you know, and on a reasonable reading of the bible, god is indeed a raving bigot who hates the gays.

Sorry, I'm not getting where Ellie is coming from, or italian isn't?

I vaguely recognize her name but I just found this an interesting question in the OP. I didn't know it was part of a bigger discussion?

thistle - but can we not just say they're raving bigots? If you don't believe in God, does it matter if you think he's a made-up entity who's a raving bigot or not?

Italiangreyhound I see that Ellie demolished the 'but people did things differently back then' response :)

But don't forget the other half of that question. I'd still like to hear about how it was Christians that were at the forefront of the move to abolish it.

I know (I think) exactly where Ellie and the atheists (sounds like a girl band) are coming from. 6 months ago I did not! They have educated me! Knowledge is power and all that. What I think they do not know is that I am one if the good guys. The rest is that is more 'flexible' Christians are providing cover for the radical fundamentals but the reality is that if all the more open of us went away I think
(IMHO) the world would would not turf all the fundamentals out, instead those who are exploring faith ( and I believe people will always be looking for God because that is the way we are.made) would only have the more fundamental option.

I don't believe more 'flexible' (and I have issues with 'flexible' as a term) Christians are providing cover for the radical fundamentalists.

'Flexible' bothers me as a term, because I think often people imagine that fundamentalism is the oldest and most theologically accurate form of any religion. And it rarely is, to my knowledge. Christianity has written into its theology an awful lot of acceptance that you can and should use your brain to think about morality. I think people who use Christianity as a cover for bigotry are simply bigots - and bigots will always try to latch onto some vaguely acceptable ideology and pretend it justifies them. That's what they do.

Yes Malenky I agree with your thoughts on imperfect communication and regret. What does I'm not getting from where Ellie is coming from or Italian Jan'
t mean? thistle attacking gay people is an utterly abhorrent hate crime. Lots of people commit hate crimes and some may profess to be Christians nut I think the vast majority of those who commit hate crimes would be people who have no real understanding of faith.

Well, I can understand why people get angry, when someone comes along saying 'I am Christian therefore I can tell you gays are evil'. I mean, I get angry! It's normal.

And I also can understand why people get angry at the idea of prayer, which seems to them a waste of time, when terrible things happen in the world. Again, I do think it's natural. I don't agree, but I can see why it's upsetting. The basic issue is that for those of us who are Christian, prayer (and faith in general) seems helpful to us. To others, it seems wilfully self-deceptive or empty, or even actively harmful if it takes us away from more practical help. But then we're talking about things that are always going to be upsetting - death, evil (whatever you mean by 'evil'). So there's no way the debate wouldn't get fraught, IMO.

Malenky, I was talking about Italian.
Who are the flexible brothers?

Italian. I am confused about words again there!
Who do you mean by radical fundamentalists?

I think there is a value in a "holding things in the light" type of prayer. This is a Quaker expression and way of thinking about prayer which I like very much. I think either personally, with things going on in your own life, or alongside others in a community maybe praying about the bigger troubles of the world, it is a good thing to hold them in the light together. I find this brings a new and better perspective, as well as building a sense of community with others. I like that it's a fairly universal experience (though not completely so obviously), to call out to a heavenly parent, or to cry for the coming of God's kingdom on Earth - that we might all live in peace and goodwill, and that suffering might be lessened.

In fact I'm thinking about starting a "holding in the light" prayer group at our Meeting House to do just that with a group of Friends.

As it says on the "daily gratitudes" thread ....
(I find being thankful is such a bedrock of spirituality and daily living too - which I'd like to remember more often !)
... Namaste (Peace)

Malenky - you can only dismiss them as raving bigots if you dismiss anyone who goes by the idea of an absolute Christian truth as raving as well (minus the bigotry). In giving credence to the idea of an absolute truth, you give credence to the idea that the truth might actually be as these bigots believe it to be.

Italian- I think you are very wrong in dismissing people who carry out attacks on gay people as having a poor understanding of the faith. In many cases they have a better knowledge of and spend far more time in study of the bible than most Church of England devotees, for example. And what they do is not a hate crime. It is not illegal in Uganda, for example, to attack someone who is gay. They do not see it as wrong, because the bible tells them it is ok.

This bit about who is a christian is getting messy now. I don't think you can quite compare atheism or vegetarianism with religion as they have reasonably well defined definitions. If you see a vegetarian eating meat then you know they are not vegetarian.

There doesn't seem to be a definition of christianity at all now. When this has come up before on here some Christians have claimed that there is a base set of beliefs that qualify. However if they are right then there are far fewer Christians then is claimed. In any case I'm not sure what authority they have for deciding.

Christians try have this both ways in my experience. When it's something positive then Christians will claim several billion fellow believers and say "they can't all be wrong", but when a particular belief is pointed out they tend to say"You can't assume that I believe that. We are not all the same".

In fact the number of people who share your set of beliefs is probably very small and may just include you.