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Original poster

YEC part Trois

406 replies

PedroYoniLikesCrisps · 12/05/2013 09:15

So we're still going, perhaps not as YEC as originally, but there's some good debate still occurring! Can we link from previous again?

OP posts:
daftdame · 13/05/2013 14:30

Snorbs I don't think you've got it. Sad

People in the Old Testament under the Law sinned all the time (as those living under the Law do so now). God was and is merciful to those who sought / seek Him.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 14:37

Snorbs The Law is like any law, crime and punishment, as a deterrent, a means of preventing society from descending in to chaos. I

It does not really work unless people are able to keep the law. They have to understand it, agree with it. They don't just obey to escape the punishment or disobey and try to evade getting caught.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 14:38

Snorbs lawlessness for those without Grace is just as harsh.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/05/2013 14:48

snorbs I don't think we'll ever get it. Perhaps we just haven't read the bible enough to brainwash ourselves? Then we could seek redemption through christ's eternal truth and whatever.

All a bit problematical if you don't believe that god exists, or that Jesus was the son of god, or that the bible is the word of god. (All things that daftdame seems to be taking as accepted here) And if, like me and many others, you don't believe that religion is necessarily a force for good, then the last thing you want to do is start living by the bible's (dubious) moral code.

Snorbs · 13/05/2013 14:59

People in the Old Testament under the Law sinned all the time (as those living under the Law do so now). God was and is merciful to those who sought / seek Him.

Your book of Eternal Truth says that your god told Moses what the law should be. One of those laws (Leviticus 21:20) was that they were allowed to beat their slaves as harshly as they wanted provided that slave didn't die within a few days.

In the time of the Old Testament then was the non-fatal beating of slaves a sin or not?

daftdame · 13/05/2013 15:00

Sabrina I agree with you that it (life) is problematical if you don't believe that God exists, or that Jesus was the son of God, or the Bible is the word of God.

Faith is a pre-requisite for Christians. I don't think the moral code is dubious (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be one)) and I find I am more at peace with my life since growing in my faith. As for brainwashing, are you brainwashed by the secular Zeitgeist?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/05/2013 15:03

Life isn't problematical for me - I'm not the one trying to claim the bible is god's word.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/05/2013 15:05

Daftdame, you make it all sound like a massive confidence trick - ah... but you have to believe... don't believe? Well you're just not trying hard enough. Go read your bible!

daftdame · 13/05/2013 15:06

Snorbs allowed to not had to. Whether this was a sin would probably depend on whether it justified the crime, in crime and punishment terms, whether it was needed as a deterrent. I can't really comment re sin or not - once society is corrupt, law and lawlessness can be equally harsh. Law just highlights where sin is. Pagan societies had slavery too. Horrible but true.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 15:08

Sabrina If something is true it can exist beyond our realisation of it. You can disbelieve it but it still exists.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 15:10

Snorbs and Sabrina, I wish you well anyway and I'm off for now.

Snorbs · 13/05/2013 15:37

Whether this was a sin would probably depend on whether it justified the crime, in crime and punishment terms, whether it was needed as a deterrent.

So your rationalisation of this is that provided the slave deserved it, a near-fatal beating was acceptable to your god.

Sadly that's not what it says in your book of Eternal Truth. It sets limits as to how quickly the slave can die from the beating. It says nothing about the circumstances under which such a beating is justified.

I cannot help but feel that talk of the slave's actions justifying having the crap kicked out of him/her (although I'm struggling to imagine what such actions might be) is more post-facto apologetics to defend the indefensible rather than anything that's actually in the source text.

Pagan societies had slavery too. Horrible but true.

Absolutely true but entirely irrelevant as no-one here is claiming that the Pagan societies had a book of Eternal Truth telling them that beating those slaves was ok.

EllieArroway · 13/05/2013 16:15

Ellie Re. existing and non-existing at the same time consider Schroedinger's Cat

That was a thought experiment - not designed to show that the cat actually is alive and dead at the same time Hmm

Why have you given me a list of logical fallacies? Care to tell me which ones I've been using?

Re. demonstrating spirit. One explanation I can give is as with Scientific Theory. It exists and doesn't exist in the physical realm. It is written down so exists physically (although not as an entity) but when people read it (and test it in life) and consider it true it exists in their thoughts and then the collective thoughts of those that believe it. Like Zeitgeist (spirit of age/time)

Erm. A Scientific theory is a model to describe/explain something. The thing it's describing exists, but the explanation remains conceptual. Putting it into words on paper does not make it into a physical thing.

Lots of fantasies exist in people's minds - as do fictional concepts. I have a concept of Superman. He must exist because lots of people can conceive him, right? Wrong.

The Bible is similar, exist physical in that it is written and in people's thoughts. Except the truth in the Bible in eternal, timeless

The book Harry Potter & The Philosophers Stone is physically written on paper and brings the concept of a boy with glasses to mind. So Harry Potter is real?

Oh - and thanks. I know what Zeitgeist means. Kindly do not patronise me.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 16:18

Snorbs its all post-facto apologetics unless you want to do an actual Bible study - which I suspect you don't.

I don't fully understand the harshness of the Old Testament either, since I don't live in those times or that kind of society. I have not had enough revelation on the Law as depicted in Leviticus yet to understand it completely, I'm just glad of the New Covenant and Grace that comes with Christ.

Christianity is not merely apologetics and can't be fully understood through intellectual studies. You have to receive revelation through the Holy Ghost and genuinely be seeking God through Jesus Christ.

EllieArroway · 13/05/2013 16:21

daftdame

I wonder what excuse explanation you have for Numbers 31: 1-40?

A charming tale where Yahweh instructs Moses and his army to kill all the Midanites after defeating them. Moses leaves the women and children alive and God says (paraphrasing) - "What the hell are you doing? Kill the babies, children and women - except the virgin girls. You can keep those for yourselves wink wink, nudge nudge".

LizzyDay · 13/05/2013 16:22

"Christianity is not merely apologetics and can't be fully understood through intellectual studies. You have to receive revelation through the Holy Ghost and genuinely be seeking God through Jesus Christ."

Isn't that just a fancy way of saying

"you can't understand it by thinking about it. You have to WANT to believe it."

EllieArroway · 13/05/2013 16:24

January

I understand time dilation up to a point - well enough to know that Best was talking out of his backside, anyway.

Until Icbineg gets back, I'll have a stab. What are your thoughts? :)

daftdame · 13/05/2013 16:24

Ellie sorry for my over use of the word 'Zeitgeist', I'm finding it difficult to find secular terms for spiritual concepts.

I may over explain because it is difficult to put the spiritual in to words, apart from quoting the Bible, which you have said you don't believe anyway. I can never be sure if my words do what I want to say justice. So I try to find secular analogies and language to the best of my abilities, I accept they won't always hit the mark.

LizzyDay · 13/05/2013 16:25

Actually that should say

"want to believe in it."

daftdame · 13/05/2013 16:26

LizzyDay Yes, I believe that about anything. Intention pre-curses action.

Januarymadness · 13/05/2013 16:34

so you think revelations come to all those that genuinely seek it..... fails to explain my formative teenage years. despite going to church, sunday school, school religious groups, various church youth groups etc. Wow he missed a trick with me. Even my family were scared I would become a cult member with the dedication I put in to finding faith.

Turns out I found God but presumably not your one.

LizzyDay · 13/05/2013 16:39

"Yes, I believe that about anything. Intention pre-curses action."

But it's not really a great strategy for running your life, surely? I'll invest all my energy in something simply because I WANT to, whether or not it makes any sense? Confused

Januarymadness · 13/05/2013 16:39

oh oh time dialation.

So from what I read the theory is that the effect of gravity around stellar masses could alter the concept of time around those masses.

Was Best trying to argue that because, relative to us, a second could be longer then, in theory, light could travel a greater distance (perceived by us) in a shorter time period without breaking the laws of physics.

daftdame · 13/05/2013 16:39

Januarymadness I can't comment on your formative years. I know nothing about them.

Januarymadness · 13/05/2013 16:42

spiritually thats pretty much it in a nutshell. No bad upbringing. No one forcing me into anything. Me genuinely trying to find a spiritual path which centred around Christianity.