YEC part Trois

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

So we're still going, perhaps not as YEC as originally, but there's some good debate still occurring! Can we link from previous again?

[daftdame]

LizzyDay its not a strategy, it's a belief and if I believe it it does make sense to me. Of course I talk with other people, they can advise me...but essentially I decide, I have free will.

[Januarymadness]

As I said God missed a trick because it wouldnt have taken much of a revelation to paush me over the edge.

[Snorbs]

I don't fully understand the harshness of the Old Testament either, since I don't live in those times or that kind of society.

Well let us thank Reason that we live in a time when the law is set by more-or-less rational humans rather than laid down by a blood-thirsty god.

[Snorbs]

Was Best trying to argue that because, relative to us, a second could be longer then, in theory, light could travel a greater distance (perceived by us) in a shorter time period without breaking the laws of physics.

I think so. So the light from stars that appear to have travelled for billions of years to reach us actually only took a few thousand. Or something. I think it's a fairly standard YEC "Science says , so let's wildly stretch it to a point almost immeasurably far from what actually says, therefore god" thing.

[daftdame]

Januarymadness Maybe God is trying to reveal something to you now but you refuse to see it...

[daftdame]

Snorbs our law system is rooted in Christian belief.

[Januarymadness]

quite the opposite. At the beginning of this thread I was still tryong to allign my thoughts with some of Christianity. I no longer make that attempt. I certainly dont want to allign muself with the God of the OT

[Januarymadness]

Time dialation- doesnt really explain how this happened uniformly in all directions from us and lack of spectral shift though

[daftdame]

Januarymadness Sorry.

[Januarymadness]

sorry for the typos on phone

[Januarymadness]

No need to be sorry for me. It has brought me closer to the God I do believe in and has given me a greater understanding of why I believe what I do.

[Snorbs]

Snorbs our law system is rooted in Christianity.

Hardly. The OT laws are often grotesque and the NT doesn't really have much in the way of law other than saying the OT laws are still entirely in effect except when they aren't.

[Januarymadness]

btw the english legal system is rooted in common law. The concept of common law was founded in the 12th century under Henry II. The tribunals were SECULAR.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Evolution is a scientific theory that in itself is subject to change as we discover more about the world. It is not an eternal truth.

Evolution can be observed now. We know it is going on. Also without leaving your chair you can reason that it must be going on. There is a good description of this somewhere, but I don't have it to hand. It goes something like this:

Do you agree that children can be somewhat different to their parents obviously true.

Do you agree that the difference could be an advantage in survival terms Obviously true. Simplest case would be if you can run faster than your friend then he gets eaten by the lion not you. So the fast runners survive to breed.

[BestValue]

BOB, your description of evolution is one that even the most ardent young earth creationist agrees with. So there's obviously a lot more to it. Just sayin'.

[EllieArroway]

January

So from what I read the theory is that the effect of gravity around stellar masses could alter the concept of time around those masses

Not really the "concept" of time, but time itself slows down (relative to an observer). But the effect of this is that, at extreme speeds, it's possible that time could be running slower here on Earth from the point of view of someone travelling elsewhere at close to the speed of light. This kind of gravitational time dilation is seen when the universe is observed - but at nowhere like the level it would need to be to bring the universe down from 13.7 billion years to 6000!

Was Best trying to argue that because, relative to us, a second could be longer then, in theory, light could travel a greater distance (perceived by us) in a shorter time period without breaking the laws of physics

He's saying that if Earth is sitting in a gravitational well (in a finite, bounded universe) the time dilation effect would be so great that it would have the effect of allowing a mere 6000 years to pass here on Earth while 13 billion were passing in the rest of the universe. So, old universe but young Earth.

Tis bollocks. Light that's heading down into a gravity well (in other words, the light we would see if we were in one) is blue shifted. That's not what we see - we see red shifted light that's moving away from us. That's just one of the numerous problems with this crackpot idea.

[EllieArroway]

Best

Are you familiar with TAG?

[EllieArroway]

January - sorry, just to add:

Time dilation is not about a second being longer or shorter as such. Time doesn't change in that respect. If you're stuck on Earth, nothing changes from your perspective at all. Not just because you're unaware - but because it doesn't change at all within your frame of reference. It's only from the frame of reference of a potential observer who's travelling at a faster speed who happens to look back at you that your time, from their point of view, would have slowed down. This happens as an effect of the constancy of light speed.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

Think about it this way. All of us, in fact everything in the universe is travelling at the speed of light if you add up the velocities which we are moving in each of the four dimensions (3 dimensions of space and one of time).

If you take just 2 dimensions of space you can see how, if you are travelling at, say 30 miles an hour north, you will be travelling at 0mph east. Then you turn slightly east, but keep the same overall velocity, you are now travelling a bit less than 30mph north and a bit more than 0mph east.

The same is true in 4 dimensions, if you move faster in one of the space dimensions, you move slower in the time dimension. Overall, your total velocity is the speed of light. That is also why you cannot exceed the speed of light because you'd have to be moving at a negative velocity through space, which is impossible.

A photon, which has no mass, travels at exactly the speed of light through the space dimensions because it doesn't travel in the time dimension. A photon will not experience the passing of time whilst it exists.

[BestValue]

"Your book of Eternal Truth says that your god told Moses what the law should be. One of those laws (Leviticus 21:20) was that they were allowed to beat their slaves as harshly as they wanted provided that slave didn't die within a few days. In the time of the Old Testament then was the non-fatal beating of slaves a sin or not?"

Snorbs, I believe you meant Exodus 21:20. Let's look at the verse (and verse 21 as well):

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."

The term for ?punished? here is 'avenged', indicating the standard 'lex talionis', the law of equivalent retribution.

lex talionis: the law of retaliation equivalent to an offense; esp : the principle of retributive justice based on the Mosaic law of ?eye for eye, tooth for tooth? in Exod 21:23?25 ?called also talion

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lex%20talionis

So allow me to translate. This passage is saying, "If you beat your slave and he dies, you are to be put to death also. But if he recovers and does not die, than you will not be put to death either. But there is still the eye-for-an-eye punishment."

This would be similar to a law today which states: "If you murder someone you will be executed. (i.e. capital punishment). But if you assault someone, you will be assaulted." Today, we would just put them in jail and not assault them. But that's because we don't take sin as seriously as God does.

To take these passages and misrepresent them as if God is okay with beating someone within an inch of his life is just like claiming that our laws today say it is okay to assault someone as long as we don't murder them. I think you have a very skewed understanding of the text and I think it is because you let your bias get in the way. Please keep these passages in mind:

Leviticus 25:35-43

35 ??If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. 36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit. 38 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.

39 ??If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

[BestValue]

"Are you familiar with TAG?"

Sure, Ellie, I used to play it as a kid. And you're 'it.'

[Januarymadness]

thanks Ellie. I think thats what I meant I just didn't write it very well.

[Snorbs]

So allow me to translate. This passage is saying, "If you beat your slave and he dies, you are to be put to death also. But if he recovers and does not die, than you will not be put to death either. But there is still the eye-for-an-eye punishment."

No, the passage does not say that. You are adding your own "let's try to make this abhorrent verse not quite so abhorrent" gloss on it.

If you beat your slave so badly he dies three days after you've beaten him there won't be an eye-for-an-eye punishment will there?

Moreover, if the eye-for-an-eye punishment still holds regardless of whether it's a slave or not why have this law at all? What does it add?

Incidentally, this (as well as a number of other) passages very clearly states that non-Hebrew slaves are considered property of the slave owner. This is despite your attempts in the previous thread to cast Biblical slavery as nothing more than an employer/employee relationship.

[Snorbs]

He's saying that if Earth is sitting in a gravitational well (in a finite, bounded universe) the time dilation effect would be so great that it would have the effect of allowing a mere 6000 years to pass here on Earth while 13 billion were passing in the rest of the universe. So, old universe but young Earth.

I'm no cosmologist but it seems to me that a gravity well steep enough to slow time that much would be, um, problematic. If the Earth was at the centre of the gravity well then surface gravity would be immense - possibly enough to crush the Earth into a neutron star. If the Earth wasn't exactly at the centre then the gravitational tides would tear it apart.

[Januarymadness]

appart from the bit about it being US in the gravitational well. Well thats just ?