YEC 2

[Januarymadness]

Right I am going to bite. I shouldnt have looked at the facebook but I did.

Mr Ruggles you have made some horrible accusations. You have claimed everyone who disagreed with you was an atheist who lacked logic and reasoning. You were wrong on ALL counts. Many people told you they were Christian or Theists, they just didn't agree with you. The thread was also full of valid scientific arguments which were well worded and full of logic and reasoning.

You have also accused us all of being bullies. Something I saw no evidence of. Not agreeing with someone is not bullying.

So please do feel free to justify your off board comments here as speaking behind peoples backs is really not on.

Please could someone link to the old thread. Thanks

Thanks, Islet. Will go look...

Just that it's normally easy to distinguish rickets from other bone pathologies, so the lavish claim that ALL neanderthals are really ricket-sufferers is what I'm keen to probe.

In terms of wider epidemiology, there might well be some correlation between rickets and northern latitudes, but the Gibraltar neanderthals, for example, are very very unlikely to have had rickets, while the ice ages would have made the ice-covered northern regions unlikely choices of dwelling place for most hominids - it's above/north of - basically, Birmingham - in the current UK that rickets is a risk, and it was made much worse by coal smoke/urbanisation/the Industrial Revolution. Also the pre-neolithic diet - which we know a lot about - would have been quite prophylactic against rickets.

I'm always interested in HOW erroneous suggestions like this get made without immediate refutation.

"The same goes for the bible really....when the morality of humans exceeds the morality of god...well what are we left with?"

Yes indeed - you only have to look at people who use 'god's will' to excuse all manner of violence. Like nuns beating children for being 'sinful', as just one example.

Another example is slavery. Neither the Talmud, the Bible (OT and NT) or the Qur'an offer any prohibition of slavery. The Abrahamic god must think it's ok.

Best - Dr Justin Bartlett is an academic who conducted a three-year international research project, which found that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. There is absolutely some credence in this - the evidence of such belief systems and religion is all around us.

However The researchers point out that the project was not setting out to prove the existence of god or otherwise, but sought to find out whether concepts such as gods and an afterlife appear to be entirely taught or basic expressions of human nature.

Findings that humans have a predisposition for beliefs in deities is absolutely not proof that such deities actually exist and should not be taken as such. Therefore, your assumption that 'god exists,' based on research like this, is flawed.

Best - If you have a child, recall how young he/she was when you told them not to touch something and, with a devious smile, they looked at you and touched it anyway. They knew what they were doing was wrong. That is sin.

That Right there, sums up my discomfort with a religion that preaches a loving god on the one hand, but then talks of toddlers, evil and sin, on the other.

I don't know what your toddlers (if you have any) were like - but I have had 3 children and never would I have described their behaviour (even when misbehaving) as sinful or evil. It is quite normal, natural behaviour for toddlers to test boundaries and express an inquisitiveness about the world around them.

Yes it's interesting isn't it. I find the notion that a toddler can be 'sinful' much more disturbing and offensive than swearing, for example.

Me too, Lizzy, and I'm Catholic.

BTW, nuns don't tend to beat children in the 21st century. :)

I remember my parish priest saying 'little children can't commit serious sins.' They can be naughty, but that's not sin. It's usually boredom.

Jesus also said, 'Suffer the little children to come to me, and forbid them not, for such is the kingdom of Heaven.'

And it reminds me of the cruelty meted out to women and children believed to be 'possessed' or involved with witchcraft.

Sorry, Lizzy, let me understand you. What reminds you? The idea of sinful toddlers?

Just so you know, women and (mainly adolescent) children sometimes feigned possession for money/fame. Google 'boy of Bilson'. Complete powerlessness can drive people in strange directions. Though clearly their complicity can NEVER excuse cruelty, in England it was very unusual for them to be cruelly treated. From around 1605, they were usually medically examined.

Man - all this talk of toddler sin and I just want to run out of work and all the way home and give mine a massive bear hug.

I always thought the little smile was one of 'hey! I finally got some cause and effect sorted out here'. Yes- that's right DD, every single time you try to put jam in the cd player I am going to stop you...and tell you not to. I can't wait for her to start asking 'why?', then I can start turning her into a proper little scientist....

She is so nearly there...

'Why can't I put jam in the CD?'

'why do you think you can't put jam in the CD?' (hypothesis formation)

Although then you get hypothesis testing...which is going to involve a lot of attempts to put jam into other electrical goods....

Ah well as long as I am consistent, she should get it sorted in the end...

WHAT? you mean you aren't just gping to say "because I said so"

hmmm I guess that must be where our tendency to rely on instructions from a higher power comes from....if so we really are about to have a hike in the number of atheists in the world.

Sadly the bible presumably has little to say on the topic of jam in electronics...

Gosh - another partly remembered sci fi novel, involved a visitation by aliens in which the knowledge that only species with a two parent model were ever found to believe in god. It would be awesome to discover intelligent hive like creatures and then find out what model of spirituality they had come up with....

I went to a student research talk the other day and they are so very very close to being able to get atmospheric data from exoplanets....we could genuinely live to see the first evidence of life outside the solar system...

Sieglinde - sorry, not sure what you mean either

I was referring to the idea of 'sinful toddlers' reminding me of the mindset of those who think that children can be possessed by demons.

BBC article on it here:
Witchcraft-based child abuse: Action plan launched
"The government has launched an action plan to tackle child abuse linked to witchcraft or religion in England.
High-profile cases include the murders of Kristy Bamu and Victoria Climbie but experts fear much more abuse is hidden."
"The government says that cases of adults inflicting physical violence or emotional harm on children they regard as witches or possessed by evil spirits occur across the world, often in sub-sects of major religions, such as Christianity."

Of course these are extreme examples, but I think that's why the idea of an adult considering a small child to be 'sinful' or 'influenced by the devil' makes me shudder.

Those stories give me the chills, Lizzy.

is it bad that every time I think about this thread in my head I am singing the theme song to "The Big Bang Theory".... mad science, history, unravelling the mystery that all started wiyht he big bang.....

sorry for the cross post with the witchcraft stories. They always make me remeber "Adam" the torso in the Thames. Nothing sadder than a child no one misses enough to claim or to fight for justice for xxxx

One of my main reasons for mocking the superstitious and refusing to treat their silly delusions with any respect is this business of 'witchcraft' and 'sin' - basically an excuse for predominantly male self-appointed authority figures to assault women and children. Women who want autonomy are often attacked and even killed for this and it's often justified on the grounds that they are sinners and blasphemers ie they have offended the men's imaginary friend.

Ol'Besty hasn't yet started down that sort of route, not really, but his overall tone does display a certain amount of irritation that mere women are pissing all over his bad science and ignorance and correcting him on facts...

Oh, sorry, Lizzie - yes, I understand now. Yes, creepy and very very distressing, though usually not really part of Christian or even Western culture as it is in the 21st century. It's that some African tribal religions believe strongly in spirit children. The one I know about from Achebe is the Ibo custom of exposing twins.

SGB, may I just point out that virtually no Christians in the West now believe in witchcraft?

There is also absolutely no evidence that witches were women who sought autonomy - just the opposite, in fact, as they were often beggars who annoyed their neighbours by asking for things. (See Thomas, 1971)

Nor are sinning and blasphemy equated with witchcraft. Nor were children accused of it.

It might not be part of your Christian culture but the members of the African pentecostal churches that do believe in witchcraft would, I am sure, self-identify as Christians.

Yes, snorbs, but the witch beliefs they have are part of their pre-Xt worldview and predate the arrival of those churches. This is a bit beside the point, I know, in comparison with saving those children... but important to be clear about who the enemy is.

'Sin' is in common parlance in Christian teachings though, isn't it? Is sin no longer anything to do with the Devil?

I think I'm getting a bit too engrossed in this, although I am finding it fascinating. I am in serious danger of not getting enough work done though....

I strongly dislike the idea of 'sin', especially when applied to children. It's something that pushed me away from going to (RC) church. Children/toddlers are naturally self-centred indeed, as are adults. However, doesn't that fit in nicely with Darwin's idea of natural selection - survival of the fittest etc?

I find this 'sin' idea horrible. Especially when applied to children.

Islets - me too

I was moved to google re the subject of devil possession (I know, I know) and found this Christian site - no idea if it's credible (if such a thing exists) but quite interesting nonetheless:

"Today there are so many stories of demon or wicked spirits possessing people that it is clear that it still happens today. There is truly only one way to avoid be possessed by a wicked spirit or demon; to accept Jesus Christ and believe in Him for no wicked spirit can dwell where the Spirit of God dwells. Demons can not occupy any place that God has conquered (1 John 4). You can know for sure that demons will never possess you because, ?If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God? (I John 4:15). That is your true assurance that wicked spirits or demons will never possess you. If God lives in us, it is impossible (1 John 4:12b)."

www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/can-christians-be-demon-possessed-a-biblical-analysis/#ixzz2S3bRwBTe

So it seems that 'true Christians' can't be possessed, but unbelievers can. No manipulative pressure in those teachings then

Ok, we need some disambiguation here. Sin/the devil/witchcraft/possession are all separate ideas, and you can believe in one (or none) without signing up for all of them.

The website above is - frankly - a bit crazy eccentric. The fact that it is giving away a free book on the End Times is - well, a sign. And not credible to me as an RC, and I suspect not approved by any RC hierarchy person. It is true that there are several episodes in the Gospels where Jesus casts out demons, but just because the evangelists believed it doesn't mean we have to; some of these people were obviously mentally ill. There is one mention of witchcraft in the OT of any length (along with the prohibition on touching a pig's skin, sowing two kinds of crops side by side - see my previous Bartlett-inspired post). Though widely cited in the era of the witchtrials it doesn't exactly trip off most RC tongues nowadays. Ask one who the witch in the oT is... most won't actually know - or care.

Possession is more of a pop cult phenomenon than a RC one (the movie, 1973- not many RCs like it or like its portrayal of the RC church). The Vatican II reforms actually deleted the rite of exorcism from the baptism ceremony. That said, most archdioceses do have an exorcist, who usually has some psychological training and will enact the ritual at medical request in the hope of a kind of learned behavioural outcome.

Finally, sin. Duh. But you are fretting too much about it.

All of us commit sins - in the sense of not being perfect. God never ever stops loving us, even for a second, but we can reject his love if we like; we're free to say no to him. If we do, he will take us back in a heartbeat. Literally. But we have to want to go back to him. Hell is not a punishment so much as the chosen, willed absence of God. It's like a bigger version of, well, do I get up and go for a run, which is what I really want and what will make me happiest, or do I cave and snuggle back down?