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Philosophy/religion

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hideous hymns, vocal vicars and theatrical thuribles. Religious Chat Thread Number 6!

999 replies

nickelbabe · 17/02/2013 19:24

Welcome to the Religion Chat thread.
We're mostly Christians, but all are welcome.
a lovely soace to talk about church life, spiritual journeys and stuff in general.
It's not about debate, it's about chat.
Come oldies and newbies!

this is the previous thread

OP posts:
cloutiedumpling · 02/06/2013 22:12

The sermon this morning was on 1Peter chapters 2 and 3 - the bit about servants submitting to their masters and wives submitting to their husbands. I just felt more and more uncomfortable. I have always felt that our marriage is one of equals. I don't feel I submit to DH. I feel that if anything we treat each other as the "husbands" referred to in the passage. We are both considerate of each other and understand that we each have our strengths and weaknesses. We play to those so that we each do the things that we are best at. I'd always assumed that the passage was one that referred to society 2000 years ago and wasn't really relevant now but this morning was being told that I should be submitting to DH. Any thoughts? I'm interested in other interpretations of the passage.

Bluetinkerbell · 02/06/2013 22:41

I've signed up for the study, really going to try and do it every day!
mhd yes definitely need to meet soon! We're moving end of July, just before our trip to Taizé! :)

I need to write something about being an Anglican!

My grandad died today :( my mum really wants me to come over for the funeral, but we can't manage financially with the house move. Specially because it's last minute, funeral will possibly be this Saturday, will know more tomorrow hopefully!

Italiangreyhound · 02/06/2013 23:18

Bluebell I am so sorry to hear that. Would your mum consider paying just for you to come, if she wanted you there? just a thought. If you tell her why you can't come she may offer to pay. If she does and she can afford it then it might be good for her and you. Is it far?

Bluetinkerbell · 02/06/2013 23:34

Can't go my own, DD3 is still breastfed so would need to come.
It's only to Belgium, but both train and plane tickets last minute are crazily expensive!

Dutchoma · 03/06/2013 09:34

How about the overnight ferry to Harwich and train from there into Belgium. No extra cost for last minute and very comfortable. No charge for under fours

Bluetinkerbell · 03/06/2013 11:22

I've just booked a Ryanair flight for me and the girls from Thursday night to Monday morning for 160 return, my parents are paying :)

Dutchoma · 03/06/2013 11:59

That's a good deal. Hope it all goes well.

UniqueAndAmazing · 03/06/2013 14:16

cloutie - the flip side of that is that men in turn have to do everything they think is best for their wives.
It's definitely equal in that respect. It's all about mutual respect

UniqueAndAmazing · 03/06/2013 14:17

but, yes, you are also right in that 2000 years ago society was different.
both husband and wife need to fill both husband and wife roles in this one.
both should submit and both should make decisions based on what is best for the family.

UniqueAndAmazing · 03/06/2013 14:18

Blue sorry about your grandad :(

Dutchoma · 03/06/2013 14:52

Cloutie I missed your post about the 'submissive' wife bit.
The way someone explained this to me (and this is from Eph 5) is that the husband should treat the wife as he would himself and as Christ treats the church. So the wife 'submits' to the total self sacrifice of the husband. Put like that who would not submit? The trick is to read every verse, not every other verse.
Apart from that I think we should go with general consideration and kindness, as you say using your gifts to benefit, not only the family but the church and wider society.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 03/06/2013 18:08

Blue, sorry about your granddad but it is good that you are able to get to the funeral and be with the family.

As far as 1 Peter and the submission of wives goes I would refer the preacher back to chapter 2 vv18-21 which support slavery and chapter 3 v3 which prohibits women braiding their hair, wearing gold or fine clothing. If you want to pick out bits of the Bible to take literally then you have to take all of it and no one, even the literalists do this.

The letter of Peter is in part about how a Christian community can demonstrate that it is no threat the the dominant Greco-Roman culture in which they are living. We live in a different time and different place with different notions of equality so to pick out a line on submission of wives out of the cultural and historical context is not good hermenutics.

cloutiedumpling · 03/06/2013 22:40

Blue - I'm sorry to hear about your Grandad and glad to hear that you are able to travel back.

Thanks everyone. I've calmed down a bit now. It just felt like such a kick in the teeth to be told that despite being an independent professional woman that I'm expected to do whatever DH tells me. Sod that. I think I'll just mentally file the sermon under that category of "Don't agree with that. Will ignore."

Italiangreyhound · 05/06/2013 09:45

Cloutie I think we need to take the broader picture on submission. The Bible says submit yourself one to another:

Ephesians 5:21: Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

And it also says in Ephesians 5:22-30

"22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church ? 30 for we are members of his body."

I think you will find this interesting:

aprofoundmysterydotcom.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/exploring-the-meaning-of-head-in-ephesians-523/

The key bit is

"Christ makes the church grow, feeds it and cares for it, gave himself up for it. He is the Capstone(Matt. 21:42), He holds the church together, builds it up, edifies it. He is also the one by whom ?all things were created?, and this is the point where the metaphor cannot be completely perfect, since men didn?t create anything. In the context of Ephesians, where the subject is marriage, Christ as Head in terms of authority or supremacy is never mentioned. It is only in the context of Christ giving himself up for and nourishing the church that the husband is the head, as Christ.

Therefore, the husband is to love his wife by helping her grow, nourishing and edifying her while giving himself up for her, loving her as his own body."

Remembering that in Bible times when were the bread winners. I am not for a moment suggesting this should be the way it is now but that is how it was, women were very much dependant on the men in their lives. So the Bible clearly says men need to love and care for their wives. In modern times women also earn money and I feel that is totally right and so it is not about who earns the money but how we care for each other. IMHO

And finally it says ....

"The Bible simply never tells husbands to lead or have authority over their wives. The husband as head of the wife is a metaphor, not a model for hierarchy in marriage. This is all very mysterious(Eph. 5:32), and cannot be understood completely in human terms.

It?s demeaning to the mysteriousness of the one flesh union between husband and wife to define it in terms of a hierarchy. Wade Burleson points out, ?Jesus explicitly forbids any one individual assuming authority over other adults in the Christian community(Matthew 20:20-28).? I agree. No adult should ever have to permanently surrender their will to another person. This is idolatry, as we should be surrendered to Christ and Christ alone. He is the way, and we do not have to go through another person to get to him.

The husband is the head of his wife, as in the one who can lift her up, edify her, and help her grow. He is not her authority. Christ is her authority."

Italiangreyhound · 05/06/2013 09:46

...men were the bread winners. sorry

UniqueAndAmazing · 05/06/2013 11:11

beautifully put, greyhound

that's exactly the case - each partner in the marriage has to submit to the other.

Italiangreyhound · 05/06/2013 11:24

Thanks unique.

Just for the record the Matthew quote I just mentioned is....

Matthew 20:20-28

New International Version (NIV)
A Mother?s Request

20 Then the mother of Zebedee?s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

21 ?What is it you want?? he asked.

She said, ?Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.?

22 ?You don?t know what you are asking,? Jesus said to them. ?Can you drink the cup I am going to drink??

?We can,? they answered.

23 Jesus said to them, ?You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.?

24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, ?You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave? 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.?

cloutiedumpling · 05/06/2013 12:04

That makes a lot of sense. I have no problem with us submitting to each other, I think we do anyway. It was the way it was put on Sunday that wound me up so much - that a wife is always expected to submit to her husband. I kept thinking about two friends who have been the victims of domestic abuse and the idea of submission just made me see red. But submission without a hierarchy, now that is something else completely.

UniqueAndAmazing · 05/06/2013 12:29

you could always write her a rebuttal

niminypiminy · 05/06/2013 12:45

Blue, really sorry to hear about your grandad, but glad that you will be able to go and support your mum. It's so hard when some of your family are in different countries. When my grandad died my sister was living in the US and she was so cut up about not being able to go to the funeral and say goodbye.

I've pm'd you about the DDO meeting.

Very good words from all about submissive wives

madhairday · 05/06/2013 17:01

Great article, Italian - love that. It's like the passage on Jesus' teaching on divorce - people often assume he is anti women and against divorce etc, but taking its' correct meaning Jesus is actually standing up for the rights of the wronged woman and making sure she is looked after. So often passages from Paul's epistles are similar - as in the case of the words 'head' and 'submission.' Lovely stuff :)

How are you all?

Jaynebxl · 05/06/2013 21:33

Interesting... I read Cloutie's post about the sermon and was about to reply but read the rest of the thread first ... DO and greyhound summed it up so well I don't have anything to add!

Blue sorry to hear about your grandad. Was he Belgian? I lived in Belgium.

We had a stress at the weekend ... Came back early from holiday because our house buyers wanted to come on Sunday morning to view / measure up. Then they didn't show up! Cue panic here, helped by a very positive church meeting which focused on trusting God. Then we found out that the estate agent had forgotten to tell them that we were happy for them to come at the time they had requested so they didn't know we were waiting for them!

Dutchoma · 06/06/2013 08:36

Oh Jayne blimmin' estate agents. At least they hadn't pulled out of the purchase!

Bluetinkerbell · 06/06/2013 11:59

yes Jayne I'm Belgian too :)

Jaynebxl · 06/06/2013 15:06

Am feeling a bit kinder towards the EA now... Turns out they had called our buyers and left a voicemail, and somehow they missed the voicemail until last night so they (the buyers) have now emailed the EA to apologise!

Blue, where are you from? I lived in Belgium for 11 years.

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