Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

insulting religions

989 replies

IneedAgoldenNickname · 07/01/2013 00:39

Hi, I've never posted on this topic before, I tend to hang out in aibu, but don't want to start a bun fight!

So, I am a liberal Christian. I firmly believe that everyone had to right to believe (or not) whatever they want, provided that belief doesn't hurt anyone else.

Earlier today I posted a lighthearted status on Facebook, which had led to me being called mindless, stupid, stuck up, thinking I'm better than everyone else. I've been told God is a c**t (sorry I hate that word so much I won't type it) and that the Bible is only God for loo roll!

I'm just really angry that people think its ok to insult me/my religion like that, when I haven't once preached or insulted others.

Obviously the easy solution would be to delete them off of Facebook, but they are people I get on with other wise.

Don't really know the point of my post, just hoping id feel better writing it down. Grin

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 09/01/2013 19:59

Oh well, people who say that certainly are being silly, Ethel! (though I've never heard anyone vaguely a scientist do so)

ethelb · 09/01/2013 20:04

I never said scientist said it, I mean comedians and commentators (I'm thinking Robin Ince, Ricky Gervais et al).

I hate the way that instead of being expected to actually understand a scientific theory, evolution is fed to the public as a little historical story about a man called Darwin who got on a boat.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/01/2013 20:10

Sorry I (and I think LeBGF) misinterpreted your original 'innit' post to mean biology students were doing this.

ethelb · 09/01/2013 20:15

No. The biology students (including me!) were annoyed with people saying 'its evolution innit' in an overly simplistic way who didn't really understand the theory. Including some public figures who are atheist tubthumpers, despite being confirmed athists themselves.

Anyway, lets not dreail the thread!

specialsubject · 09/01/2013 20:18

given the hugeness of this thread, excuse me if I just express my opinions to the OP's original posting.

  1. there's no need for that kind of language in response, whatever you said.
  2. the insults to you as a person ARE offensive.
  3. if the word 'god' was replaced with the word 'santa' (and the language less ugly) would you be offended? Of course not. god is not a person and cannot be insulted. (disagreeing with this concept causes a lot of trouble)
  4. the bible is only words on paper. All such items are usable as loo roll. Some of the concepts expressed in it are very nasty and have no place this side of the dark ages. The idea of 'be nice to each other' (which I think is in there somewhere) is good.

believe away, OP - and so you should, freedom of belief is an essential - but there is no reason why the different opinions of others should offend you. I don't believe, but the fact that you do does not offend me. So why should the opposite apply?

Avuncular · 09/01/2013 20:19

For the avoidance of doubt:- Dawkins in his own words from Wiki:

Dawkins describes his childhood as "a normal Anglican upbringing". He was confirmed, and embraced Christianity until his mid-teens, at which point he concluded that the theory of evolution was a better explanation for life's complexity, and ceased believing in a god.

Dawkins states: "the main residual reason why I was religious was from being so impressed with the complexity of life and feeling that it had to have a designer, and I think it was when I realised that Darwinism was a far superior explanation that pulled the rug out from under the argument of design. And that left me with nothing."

There, but for the grace of God, go I IMO is the appropriate phrase.

So - Dawkins is a believer; he believes that Darwinism is a far superior explanation ..... Can someone please explain to me how Darwinian Natural Selection (demonstrated and accepted) ........ thinks ..... no, I'm not even going there; enough creation/evolution threads elsewhere.

All I can say is that up to mid/late teens I had exactly the same experience as RD (except I was in CofS). What put me off church was the fact that in my perception, the women went along to show off their hats and the men to show off their cars; during my first 17 years I never saw any manifestation of what I would call "real Christianity".

I was too young, self - assured and arrogant to have noticed that, without a single evangelistic word being spoken, my own mother was showing it every single day by her patience, life and example. And her support and encouragement to each of us to find our places in life.

I had to do the research to deliver the 'eulogy' at her funeral last year and this brought home just exactly how totally 'Christian' her life had been, despite being totally disabled and rendered speechless by a series of CVAs over several years. Her smile was highly esteemed throughout the Nursing Home.

My big question as a teenager was: what is life?

I still don't know the answer, but I did get an answer to the question of what the absence of life is; my star pupil in my gap-year overseas volunteer year was murdered during an after-school football match. Stabbed to death in an instant with a flick-knife through his heart.

In the country where I was, it was customary to use a glass-topped coffin, at least for significant people. The whole school attended the funeral service and we all had to file past the coffin; there was no escape.

As I passed it I tried to relate the prematurely lifeless upturned chocolate-coloured young face with the joy and enthusiasm of Douglas Hall as I had taught O-Level Physics and Maths classes (I have his photo still).

And a voice said to me very personally - was it from outside or within?:

There you are Mr Clever Scientist: you wanted to know what life is; now you know what a body without life is like. Are you satisfied now?

I'm not upset, but you can perhaps tell that I'm just a little bit cross with all this arguing, necessary though it may be.

I may not be much good at contending for the faith (my reticent Mum IMO was much better at that); but I have, I hope, given a partial and helpful account of the hope which is in me, whether this comes from an experience of God, or just as a random event occurring in a random collection of atomic particles at a random point in space-time.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/01/2013 20:20

These threads always evolve get derailed don't they?

Avuncular · 09/01/2013 20:27

Survival of the fittest arguments, I say

Anyway at least it's not a bun fight so far. Thanks everybody. Hope OP feels better now.

ethelb · 09/01/2013 20:32

@special I think the distinction between insulting God (how could you he is not a 'thing' and even if you could why would he/she be bothered about a Facebook post) and insulting a person.

I think the two are frequently mixed up by both theists and non-theists. I think the term atheists is actually a bit pointless in this thread as the people posting on the OP's Facebook were being anti-religion and anti-theist, we are merely assuming they are atheists.

I also think that the two can be misconstrued. For example, I am catholic (ish) and whenever this is bought up, often someone launches into an attack on catholicism, religious people etc. When someone is staring at me rather than the group of people we are in talking about how awful 'catholics' are, which is it they are criticising? Me or 'catholics' and the catholic church?

I think that is the crux of the matter here.

IneedAgoldenNickname · 09/01/2013 20:44

special in answer to your points, if the word God is replaced with the word Santa then no its not offensive, because I know Santa does not exist, whereas I believe God does. Not as a person, but as something, which to me means he can be insulted.
And of course the Bible, as a book, could be used as loo roll, as could any book. However, the implication was that it was only worth being used as loo roll, not worth reading. Surely of you don't believe the Bible is true, then its nothing more or less than Cinderella or the 3 bears? I personally cannot stand the twilight books, but accept that some people like them and therefore wouldn't suggest they should only be used to wipe your backside.

OP posts:
amillionyears · 09/01/2013 20:47

I think elthelb makes a valid point.
The only two catholics I know, or know enough to have a long conversation with, both of them do not think much of the Catholic Church.
I wonder how many of them do, either in this country ot others.

ethelb · 09/01/2013 20:49

@Ineed I get what you are saying about if you don't beleive the Bible then surely its just the same as any book. I feel the same. However, I am guessing that the people on your FB wall, despite not beleiving in the Bible do beleive that it is not a force for good, so it is not the case that there is an absence of belief. Or they are showing off like a 17 year old in the sixth form common room, either or Grin

And a second question, why are you bothered that God can be insulted? It really isn't the same as you being insulted (which you have a right to be pissed off about) or is the issue that you think they were trying to insult you by insulting God?

IneedAgoldenNickname · 09/01/2013 20:53

More likely that they were showing off like 17 year old tbh!

I guess insulting God bothers me in the same I'd be upset if someone told me my Mum was a bitch. That's the best way I can think of explaining it, but not sure if its clear Confused

OP posts:
ethelb · 09/01/2013 20:56

Yes it does make sense. But do you think they knew (or thought) you would react to it like someone saying your mum is a bitch? ie they knew you would be insulted by association so tried to get a rise out of you?

Or do you not think they really thought through the potential implication of what they were saying to your feelings? Or do you think they don't care? (and that is why you are pissed off)

GrimmaTheNome · 09/01/2013 20:59

Perfectly clear, Ineed (I'm an atheist, but used to be a Christian). I can only suppose these 'friends' don't have the maturity to think what effect their silly words may have on other people.

EllieArroway · 09/01/2013 21:02

Holo Yes, I do. Apparently you don't as I haven't actually insulted anyone on this thread.

I've made myself as clear as I can on the theology issue too. If you don't get it now, you never will. I'm not repeating myself.

amillionyears · 09/01/2013 21:06

Sometimes I feel forced to write something on MN that I would rather not.
But here goes.
And just saying, not saying it is actually going to happen in the next 50 years or even the next 500 years.

In the bible, it gives a list of how the world is going to end. But it gives the list backwards. So it says something like x is going to happen, And before that w, and before that v and before that u and so on..........all the way back to about n which is the persecution of Christians worldwide.
In other words, that is what it is all going to start with.

Like I said, who knows about the timing, but felt I should mention it.

ethelb · 09/01/2013 21:08

I think often one of the reasons people feel ok insulting Christianity far more freely than they do other religions is that people associate other religions with cultural differences and assume that people will consider their religion an integral part of their culture and therefore a part of their personal identity, if you know what I mean. So people don't get as offensive so freely as they acknowlege that they may be insulting the person themselves when they insult the religion.

On the other hand, Christianity is considered an optional extra on top of your cultural background if you are white british, and therefore people don't consider how much someone might consider their christianity part of their personal identity in the same way, and therefore how offensive it may be to some people.

You don't have the right to not be offended, but I do think that a lot of the time people forget how much of an arsehole being pointlessly and willfully offensive to individuals makes you.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/01/2013 21:15

At the time that was written, Christians were being persecuted and (correct me if I'm wrong, Holo or someone) many thought the return of Christ was imminent. Those scriptures have been (mis)-interpreted time and again...never right yet, no reason to suppose they ever will be.

Christians are persecuted in countries around the world in present times. Sometimes by other christians
But in the UK on balance Christians are still privileged not persecuted (except in NI where there's still inter-sectarian persecution Sad).

amillionyears · 09/01/2013 21:26

Yes, when the bible was written, they did think that the return of Christ was imminent.

Had to have a think about whether Christians in this country are still privileged. I suppose they are, but not sure I can personally think of any concrete examples?

IneedAgoldenNickname · 09/01/2013 21:35

Glad that post made sense Grin
To be honest, I'm not why they did, but suspect its because they don't care.

OP posts:
amillionyears · 09/01/2013 21:41

Do you mean you dont think they are bothered whether you would feel insulted or not?

IneedAgoldenNickname · 09/01/2013 21:57

Yes sorry. Not sure why I'm friends with then tbh!

OP posts:
HolofernesesHead · 09/01/2013 22:39

Grimma, you're right about the firs Christians expecting the end of time any time now. Some of the later New Testament writings seem to show a growing realisation that 'any time now' might mean 'not for ages' or 'who can say?'

Meandering, evolving religion threads are cool. Smile

Snorbs · 09/01/2013 22:43

ethelb, I disagree. I think Christianity, and the CofE in particular, comes in for particular criticism in the UK because of its privileged status in society. As a given religion throws its weight around more so it comes in for more criticism. That's just politics.

Eg, my DD's primary school has to, by law, have regular group worship of a "broadly Christian nature". Would I do better criticising (say) Sikhism for this, or the CofE that by virtue of its privileged position helps keep such indefensible laws on the books?

All that being said, the claim that Christianity is being unduly criticised compared to other religions is something I suspect many Muslims would want to have a word with you about.

Swipe left for the next trending thread