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insulting religions

989 replies

IneedAgoldenNickname · 07/01/2013 00:39

Hi, I've never posted on this topic before, I tend to hang out in aibu, but don't want to start a bun fight!

So, I am a liberal Christian. I firmly believe that everyone had to right to believe (or not) whatever they want, provided that belief doesn't hurt anyone else.

Earlier today I posted a lighthearted status on Facebook, which had led to me being called mindless, stupid, stuck up, thinking I'm better than everyone else. I've been told God is a c**t (sorry I hate that word so much I won't type it) and that the Bible is only God for loo roll!

I'm just really angry that people think its ok to insult me/my religion like that, when I haven't once preached or insulted others.

Obviously the easy solution would be to delete them off of Facebook, but they are people I get on with other wise.

Don't really know the point of my post, just hoping id feel better writing it down. Grin

OP posts:
EllieArroway · 17/01/2013 10:25

Er...Amillion, yes it is if atheism is the biggest growing group Hmm

EllieArroway · 17/01/2013 10:30

Amillion You still don't quite understand that people like Solid & I truly don't care what you think your god likes or doesn't like. It doesn't exist. In spite of what you've said on this thread, I honestly think you just don't get it. We have not "turned away from God". We don't believe in it at all. And our reasons for not believing are infinitely better than any reason you have for believing.

Sorry, but there's no chance of a sensible discussion if you are going to keep quoting the Bible (you may as well quote The Cat in the Hat) and telling us what your god does & doesn't like.

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 10:32

No
population increases by say 1 million this year. Christinaity increases, Islam increases, atheism increases, how would Chrisitanity be dying?

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 10:34

Its just as well for SGB that her god is one that doesn't exist.

Ellie - IIRC at the time of Christ the Pharisees believed in Heaven and Hell but the Saducees didn't. It wasn't a fundamental building block of Judaism - still isn't, AFAIK.

On the issue of Jesus's sacrifice... yes, normal people do sacrifice themselves, permanently, for others. To save them from real, rather than (IMO) imaginary danger. The whole doctrine of atonement by anyone other than the one who has offended seems ethically dubious to me(understatement) - and this is the keystone of Christianity.

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 10:36

I do now get it that you and Solid do not think He exists.

We are in a thread discussing religion. I believe it exists. So I am discussing it.
I dont quite see why you are on this thread if you dont believe it exists?

It is like me going on a thread discussing cats, when I dont think cats exist.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 10:37

Amillion - its possible for all of those groups to be growing if there are other religions declining. Ellie, do you have statistics?

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 10:39

Oh, there's no doubt that religion exists! There's no doubt that many ideas of God(s) exist. And very interesting they all are too, hence these debates.

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 10:47

Ellie, the only way I can answer your questions is by the bible.
So yes, perhaps it is better if you dont ask me questions about God. Because the answers I have are from the bible.
I have enjoyed talking to you.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 10:56

Well, that opens up a new line ...why are your answers from the Bible? How did you arrive at the conclusion that this document is the ultimate source of knowledge, even though it contains contradictions to observed reality and to other parts of itself?

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 11:03

The bible is inspired by God.
If you live it as it says, things happen, as it says they will.
The best examples are the proverbs in the Book of Proverbs.
All other world books are not guaranteed inspired by God, but you can tell by reading some of them that they are.

As regards the perceived contradictions.
I am gradually working those out.
Actually, I worked one of them out today, because of this thread.
I have been looking for the answer for 5 years.

Observed reality, unfortunately, keeps changing its mind.
The bible never changes.

MadHairDay · 17/01/2013 11:56

I don't mind about SGB's descriptions of the god she doesn't believe in, because I don't believe in that kind of God either. She is describing a god she says she doesn't believe exists - so how can there be such a description? Either God does or doesn't exist, and surely if you don't believe God does exist you cannot place any characteristics on the God that...isn't there?

As for atonement theories, well, that could take a while to explore. Love it how these threads evolve :) Ellie, yes, you make a lot of sense. The problem is, as St Paul said not quoting the bible, no really the message of the cross seems like foolishness to those who don't believe. However, I still think that the historicity of it is intellectually robust. The actual essence of what the atonement is and does - well, that remains somewhat of a mystery, even to the most learned Christians (I'd be suspicious at someone who thought they had it all worked out.) But the bare facts are there. Jesus did die. Jesus did rise from the dead - I believe. Peoples lives were changed and continued to be changed throughout history. When I look at a friend who was abused as a child, who was a broken shadow of a person, and who is now whole and set free and achieving amazing things, who is living in freedom, I remember that the atonement is about more than 'dying for our sins' or to 'get into heaven'. It's about life now.

Now, I know you could point me at a thousand people who have overcome their past, but I've seen so many utterly broken people changed and freed. It's hard to explain.

Sigh....I know none of this really makes any sense. You can just think of me as the nutter in the corner, that's fine, but I long to communicate the absolute life changing power of God. :)

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 11:59

Observed reality, unfortunately, keeps changing its mind.

No, it doesn't. What a strange idea. Our understanding continues to get better - how could it be otherwise.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 12:02

The bible is inspired by God.

How do you know? How did you first get that idea?

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 12:04

But doesnt our understanding of things sometimes disagree with what it said 20 years ago?
Such as eggs are good for you, eggs are bad for you, and at the moment, eggs are good for you?

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 12:05

Grimma, it is from a verse in the bible?
Is it all right with you if I quote it?

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 12:08

Either God does or doesn't exist, and surely if you don't believe God does exist you cannot place any characteristics on the God that...isn't there?

Of course you can - you take the assertions of the faithful and make inferences as to what they would mean. You can work out whether those assertions are consistent, and if not what that implies....eg God made everything, therefore he made parasitic wasps and malaria etc etc....so he's ultimately responsible for the suffering of countless millions.

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 12:11

Grimma, it is from a verse in the bible?
Is it all right with you if I quote it?

Of course it's all right. But its not likely to be helpful - you cannot quote the bible to prove the bible is inspired. Its a circular argument. (There was a time when I couldn't see that myself - I might even be able to guess what you're going to quote)

DadOnIce · 17/01/2013 12:14

You see, I'm not someone who finds religious belief "difficult" and the Judeo-Christian God isn't something I have turned my back on, any more than I have turned my back on the imaginary giant beetle which the Egyptians believed pushed the sun through the sky.

This is the thing which it is hard to get through to Christians about - it isn't all about their god, particularly. Not believing in it doesn't mean you have rejected God, any more than you have rejected any other mythical deity. (If I announce that I dislike football, that doesn't mean I particularly hate Manchester United. It just means I dislike football.)

I haven't discovered any kind of god which manifests itself in any way which makes it distinct from a fictional entity. I am not aware of any god whose behaviour means I should worship it. And it is hugely improbable that any deity would take such a huge interest in the goings-on of one race of people in a 2000-year timespan on one small speck orbiting a medium-sized star in a minor galaxy. There are more stars in the Universe than there are atoms in your roof. It's like you caring what the hell happens to the atoms in the extreme tip of your furthermost ridge-tile, even down to their putative sex-lives.

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 12:15

MadHairDay, but you and I know that God exists.
So it is possible to insult Him.
And God doesnt like that.

DadOnIce · 17/01/2013 12:16

Why would it care?

MadHairDay · 17/01/2013 12:51

It's like you caring what the hell happens to the atoms in the extreme tip of your furthermost ridge-tile, even down to their putative sex-lives.

Haha, that did make me smile.

That's the thing though, that in the hugeness and awesomeness of the universe God does care about each one of us and can number the hairs on our head. Impossible to comprehend. Difficult to believe, I know - I really do appreciate all your arguments. They're usually much better than mine Grin

amillion, yes, we believe God exists and we use the bible, reason, tradition and experience to work out what kind of God God is. But SGB's description simply doesn't tally with the God I worship, and she says she does not believe god exists at all - therefore I do not worry too much about how she describes the god that doesn't exist.

Grimma, you have a good point about taking the assertions of the faithful - the problem is, often the assertions of the faithful about their experiences of God's compassion, of the power of the Spirit, of the love that changes lives etc are ignored in favour of using eg the bible to assert that God couldn't possibly be anything but bad. But there's not a God anyway so it doesn't matter. I just can't see how on one hand you can say there is no god and on the other say 'your god is horrible' - one cancels out the other, so to speak. Either there is a God and God is nice or not, or there is not at all, but you cannot disprove the existence of God by listing his supposed nasty characteristics. It's another cyclical one in some senses!

amillionyears · 17/01/2013 12:52

Sin

GrimmaTheNome · 17/01/2013 13:12

but you cannot disprove the existence of God by listing his supposed nasty characteristics.

No, of course not. Whether any god exists, and what sort of god there is evidence for be like are two distinct questions. The question that can be addressed is whether it is probable, given all available evidence, an omini- god - exists.

Snorbs · 17/01/2013 13:21

I just can't see how on one hand you can say there is no god and on the other say 'your god is horrible' - one cancels out the other, so to speak.

The Abrahamic God as portrayed in the Torah, Bible and Qur'an has got appalling morals. Patrick Bateman as portrayed in American Psycho has also got appalling morals. (Although Bateman is portrayed as killing far fewer people than the Abrahamic God reportedly did, and his victims weren't portrayed as deserving of Bateman's wrath).

So say someone comes to me and tells me that they not only believe that Patrick Bateman is real and is all-loving, but that a belief and love of him confers special privileges. I'd be hard pressed not to point out that both Bateman is a fictional character and his written portrayal is at significant odds with the way that person sees him. That person may then say, "Ah, well, the horrific torture scenes are allegorical and have to be taken in context, but if you read the fourteenth sentence on page 252 then it clearly says that Bateman loves people so he's obviously all-loving."

You are, of course, entirely at liberty to pick and choose whichever bits of the Bible you want to believe and to disregard the rest. But I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to subsequently wonder why you've chosen the bits you've chosen and your reasoning for ignoring the bits you choose to ignore.

DadOnIce · 17/01/2013 13:37

Do any Christians believe that a "Jesus" equivalent was sent to Mars or any planets in the Andromeda Galaxy or anywhere else? I know this sounds like a flippant question, but it really isn't - after all, why would we be the only planet to have had lifeforms who "fell" from grace and needed redemption? Is the rest of the universe incredibly well-behaved, and is it just Earth which ended up on the celestial naughty step?

(With the usual proviso that this is, for me, just the same as discussing the plot of "Lord of the Rings".)