The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

I dont think anyone particularly wants to believe in God.
It involves commitment.
But the upsides are wonderful.

10 points to Snorbs :)

If you seek,you will find.

Well it's been over 30 years of questions, amillionyears with no answers that make any sense to me.

Perhaps God made my brain in a way that makes faith impossible?

If you seek,you will find.

yes indeed. Of course some theists believe they've found The Truth and stop looking very hard.

Ditto to what snorbs said.

Maybe the OP is looking for God, just not amillionyears God?

Afterall, it's the God of the Bible who created evil in the first place, oh no he didn't ..... oh yes he did ..... and so on and so on.

Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people, and good stuff happens to bad people, why look for God or reason in any of it?

What makes you still carry on looking Mach?

If you've been brought up with the default assumption that there is a God, it can be quite difficult to take the leap to un-faith. Those who do so seem to find that many difficult questions simply evaporate and the world makes more sense.

I have an open mind amillionyears - I don't rule anything out. A lot of people do have faith, and some of them I know seem to be otherwise quite level headed, so I occasionally re-visit my unbelief to check that it's still valid.

I'm not "looking" but I do like to question people with faith every now and again, on the off chance that one or both of us might learn something.

Do you want to find?

Do I want to find what?

I am ambivalent about what I find, to be honest, as long as what I find appears coherent and plausible - if that turns out to be the idea that we were sneezed out by The Great Green Arkleseizure then that's fine. I don't have a preference for any particular viewpoint, I just want to find one that is sustainable.

Do you think only people who want to find a God like yours can find a God like yours?

Mach - yes, and some of the MN discussions can be a very good place to do that. And even if you don't have/regain faith, religions have something real to tell us about the human mind (not always what their adherents would think themselves) ... religions wouldn't have evolved if there was nothing useful in them.

Useful and true are not the same thing, though, are they?

I was going to say you have to be serious about it, it can't be intellectual enquiry, but that's not true because C S Lewis became a christian precisely that way. On top of a bus, IIRR. (not actually on the bus, you understand...). Perhaps you could read some C S Lewis OP? The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe notwithstanding. I like Rowan Williams too, STBXArchbishop.

I became a christian because I 'saw' a miracle, which rocked my world a bit, to put it mildly. Before that I was totally uninterested, though I was brought up by christian parents (or is that because I was brought up by christian parents?)

Useful and true are not the same thing, though, are they?

Quite so.

Do you have a feeling deep down inside that wont quite go away. Ever.

I don't think so, no. What sort of feeling?

Do you feel compelled to carry on asking questions?

Do you feel you may be blocking God in any way?

Asking questions and finding answers is one of the things that makes us human I think - it's what led us down from the trees in the first place, if you believe in evolution that is.

Are you trying to suggest that being inquisitive is some sort of 'sign'?

I feel like I am blocking God in the same way that I blocking the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It is beginning to sound like you are not particularly seeking.

So you are treating the bible just like any other book.

Are their people who are close relatives in your life,who do believe in God?

I never said I was specifically seeking anything. You assumed I was and seem to have adopted your own assumption as true even though I told you I wasn't seeking God.

I treat the bible like any book in that I don't make assumptions about it - I don't read it assuming it to be true, or read it assuming God exists - I just read it and take it at face value. I guess the problems with it are more obvious if you do that?

I know that you didnt say you were specifically seeking,Mach.

I suppose what I find curious is that you have looked at the bible for 30 years,and been asking questions about it.That is a very long time.
Do you do that as part of your job?

Not 30 years continuously - just every now and again I ask these sorts of questions. The answers are always very vague.

Do you have close relatives who believe in God?

Why do you ask?