The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

Hi springydaffs,this is our week for meeting!
I love the piece of Job that you quoted.
God is a he. And Jesus,and the disciples,and many others.
I dont have trouble with the bible,I accept it,I love it,I love God,I love Jesus etc.
I try and love my neighbour,all of them,I try not to judge non Christians,I try to judge Christians carefully.

Machadaynu,God is wating for the correct number of Christians,before he acts against Satan,to stop the suffering.
There are enormous things going on in Heaven all the time,but we are not privy to it all. We,as Christians,do get more glimpses of Gods awesomeness,power etc,but not that much more than non Christians.

springydaffs,dont worry about the testing.
You have been tested lots in your life already I would imagine.
It sounds like you still believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and you are still sorry for any sins you may have done[having read some of your posts yesterday,dont be concerned about this,any sins you may have done,will be way way lower than you think] [and by the way,any non Christians that are reading this,we dont have to list our sins to God,none of us could possibly recall them all].

re the 15 year old girl.
I do not judge her.
God will judge her appropriately for her behaviour and thoughts just like anyone else.

op,none of us can hide from God.
What we write,speak,think,act etc.
We have to be ready to give Jesus an account of it all at the end of times.

springdaffs Re the "scripture bomb"

There are many questions in that piece to which we know the answer (the cause of lightning, the water cycle and so on.) There are also many questions which indicate that the person writing it perhaps did not know quite how things worked (Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?)

There are also some odd phrases used - "Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?" seems an odd thing to say if you created just the 3,000 visible galaxies, each containing over a hundred billion stars, let alone if you created all the estimated 500 billion galaxies and the billions of stars within each one. The earth is truly, truly insignificant.

That aside, I'm still not sure what the point is - are you saying that unless we can answer all those questions there must be a God? That knowing everything is a prerequisite of being God? That God can do all those things but still not create people who are 'nice'?

nightlurker you said " A 25 year old would typically be more accountable than a 15 year old, but both would have an appropriate level of responsibility for their own choices. God takes maturity into account, and the law should as well."

But you've also said that God holds people accountable from 8. I presumed you meant that by age 8 God holds you accountable for your sins, and therefore is prepared to send you to hell for all eternity should you sin sufficiently at age 8 and then die without asking for forgiveness.

How can you be "more accountable" than that? What else can you be held accountable for that is more than your eternal soul?

amillionyears you said "I try to judge Christians carefully. "

But two of the gospels have specific instructions from Jesus not to (Matthew 7, Luke 6) - Judge not, that ye be not judged - as well as James 4 (Who art thou that judgest another?) and Romans 14 (But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. )

You then say you don't judge the 15 year old who has been in the news. How do you know she isn't a Christian? How would you judge her if you knew she was a Christian? She is over the age of accountability you mentioned.

nightlurker you said "We believe that Christ's primary payment for our sins was in the garden of Gethsemane, where he suffered for all of the sins and felt the sorrows of mankind. When Christ chose to suffer everything that humanity suffers, he learned first hand how to best comfort us when we are in need"

To whom was the "payment" made? Who required it?

Did God not know already exactly what it is to be human? Are there things he still does not know about his creation as he hasn't experienced then first hand?

hmmm, well I will 'worry about the suffering'. Because it hurts. A lot. If I didn't 'worry about it' it wouldn't be suffering, I could store it away in my head in a file marked 'theory' and tune out. Not that I'm snooty about my particular suffering, I'd far rather not have it and I don't embrace it like a friend - I'd be a nutcase if I did. Thank you for your kindness though million.

the scripture is from the Book of Job, at the end, after Job has suffered savagely (know the feeling) and Job's friends have blamed him for his suffering (know that one too). Then God speaks. That's the scripture I posted.

I get what you're saying OP about God could just wipe out all suffering and make everything glorious and wonderful and suffering-free. I'd like that but I wouldn't really be human if it happened. I have to choose, or I wouldn't be human. Novick's 1974 philosophical experiment offers a theoretical 'experience machine' in which you could programme in pleasurable experiences and 'live' them; have a break after two years in which you choose some more pleasurable experiences and then go off with those. etc. There are a number of reasons why that wouldn't, ultimately, be a pleasurable experience. (It's tempting though, I have to say). is that what you want for your kid? to programme in pleasurable experiences so she never has to choose?

True,the 15 year old may be a Christian.
But i'll say it again,what do we know she has done wrong?
I cannot comment on her as I have no idea of what she may have done wrong.

I have only skimmed the thread, and if I have time I will share my thoughts on some of the points raised, but I do want to go back to the comments about Boscastle and the flood.

1. People would have died if the alarm hadn't been raised early and the Coastguard mobilised by the man who owns the Witchcraft Museum and who is sympathetic towards pagans, who is himself a volunteer coastguard.

1. The only building that was damaged beyond all repair was the "Harbour Lights" tea room, run by Born Again Christians. They were helped to restart and rebuild by those terrible Boscastle pagans, and now have a new place just over the bridge.

1. The Witchcraft Museum has many ancient and fragile artifacts. None of these were lost to the flood, and in fact, many larger items managed to fall at just the right angle to protect smaller artifacts.

Of course, the Christians said it was just the devil looking after his own .....

You could also take apart love - romantic love, filial love, parental love - and reduce it to theory (and psychologists believe there is no such thing as love) but you wouldn't get the wonder of it. We may have reduced the universe to theory, explained it (up to a point!!) but the wonder is there nonetheless. The earth is also astonishingly beautiful (how lovely for those moonwalkers to see it in the sky like we see our moon) with an intimate, cherished beauty that no other planet has imo. I looked closely at a butterfly yesterday for about 5 minutes - the breathtaking, needless beauty of it. wow. It was only a bog-standard butterfly too.

Why do you want to talk about God OP? What are you looking for, what do you want?

Math 7 and Luke 6 are saying not to judge non Christians which I have already mentioned.
James 4,I cant see where that chaprter talks about judging.

Romans 14 is all about unclean food.
Dont judge a Christian about unclean food.
The subject is not really relevant to 21st century British christians currently.

I am not a naïve sixth former. I understand that to appreciate the highs we need lows.

However I don't think I need people to starve to death or wars to be fought in order to be happy.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said already.

The Book of Job is not meant to be taken literally. It is an allegory.

The message behind the Book of Job is that bad things happen to everybody even those who are good and righteous. Historically, it was believed that if you were prosperous then you must be very righteous and blessed by God because wealth and influence were seen as a mark of God's approval. The reverse was also believed - if very bad things happened to you then you must be paying for some kind of grievous sin.

The basis of the Book of Job is DOUBT. Job's advisers believe that he is being punished by God and refuse to believe that he hasn't done something very wrong, thus the call to "curse God and die", because that is the ultimate punishment. Job refuses to do this but his trials continue. When he does eventually question God, God basically puts him in his place. Job admits his mistake in blaming God and doubting Him, thus restoring his faith and remaining righteous. Job is then blessed all over again, showing that even whem bad things happen. faith reaps it's own rewards.

As for Satan, he is a Son of God i.e. an angel. In the OT, God created everything, both light and dark, prosperity and disaster (Is 45.7). Satan means adversary or stumbling block, so when bad things happened it was a stumbling block to faith and therefore Satan at work. The idea is that we need bad things to happen so that we can appreciate the good.

Satan in the NT, and in Christian thought, is seen as the embodiment of evil and, basically, the enemy of God trying to lead us astray. This understanding of Satan can't be applied to the Book of Job because it comes from a wholly Jewish perspective and, therefore, does not fit the Christian interpretation of Satan.

stressedHEmum How do you know it's an allegory? It's full of 'God said ...' and 'God did ...' - it's not presented as an allegory.

If it's a story of what God could/would do, why did he not do it?

If it's a story containing things God wouldn't do, how can we learn anything from it?

I think the op knows that God exists.
He doesnt like it though,and does not want to bow down to God.
So he may be trying to find holes in God and holes in the bible,to justify not having to give in to God.
But he is not feeling comfortable about it.
Because God is not allowing him to feel comfortable about it.

He knows he has made mistakes up to now.
But we all have.

Am I guessing anywhere near right op?

Because you have to take into account the historical context of the whole thing and try to understand the thinking behind it. It pretty much is presented as an allegory, to be honest. In Hebrew Job is written in classic poetry and is full of beautiful poetic and allegorical language. It's job was to convey important messages to people who would understand all the cultural and religious references it contains - i.e. the people of Israel. In that way, it's a bit like the Chronicles of Narnia. Not everything in the bible needs to be taken literally.

What we learn is that bad things happen to good people, as I said. Historically, it was believed that bad things happened to bad people. THere is much more to learn from the book of Job regarding things like redemption, revelation and relationship with God.

Accepted theology tells us that the story is an allegory. Job represents human beings trying to understand death, sin and why bad stuff happens Job's comforter's give is three different viewpoints - the materialistic, the philosophical and the standard "religious" - Elihu gives us GOd's answer. Job also represents the nation of Israel, it's trials and tribulations and it's function as a gateway to God. There is a great deal of writing that you could read on this if you want to understand better. it's 20 years since I did my degree and I'm very out of touch. I also have ME which makes it difficult for me to concentrate on formulating a cohesive explanation.

Please give your life to the Lord op.
It is time.

Or, if you're pondering suffering, and notice that theists always tie themselves in knots, maybe you should take a look at Buddhism instead. (I'm not a Buddhist but they don't seem to get into such a logical bind). Of course it depends what you're looking for.

So he may be trying to find holes in God and holes in the bible,to justify not having to give in to God.

Or maybe (s)he's finding it hard to believe in the God of the Bible due to the dubious moralities and frequent incoherences of the stories therein.

But does he want to (believe in God)? Or what?

Do you, Charles? to channel the vicar in 4 weddings. (superior references, me)