The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

You may not be able to leave the issue of God alone,because people may be praying for you.

That doesn't sound a very plausible explanation.

Oh yes it is!

Perhaps I regret the wasted years going to church, and remain baffled as to how anyone can actually believe the christian message, so spend some time, every now and again, asking people questions about how they can believe -for example - that the Book of Job shows a loving God. We never did get to the bottom of that one, did we?

Oh yes it is!

Oh no it isn't!

Is sounds to me like you want to believe.
Have you ever tried praying to God at home privately?

I am going out for the evening,and may not be back till late.
Just so you know why I wont be replying for a few hours.

Grimma

What do you believe happens to people who never heard the Mormon message? Which level of paradise do they get assigned to? I'd imagine the top level is off limits to them?

so you're best off not hearing it then? Then you get to live this life without responsibilities, and paradise to follow.

I thought we did get to the bottom of it - HEmum posted some very good stuff which put the book of Job in context, I thought.

But your main issue is suffering (you wouldn't be the first on that), so no, perhaps HEmum didn't specifically address that. What she basically said is that the book of Job is simply saying that shit happens, 'to the just and the unjust'. From where I'm standing, that is a comfort, but I appreciate that is a subjective view. I don't, for instance, adhere to the idea that christians are somehow 'protected' per se. I remember when my boy was about to have heart surgery and a christian said to me, I assume to comfort me: 'God won't let your boy die' - to which I wailed 'I can't know that!' She was offended. There are a lot of religious christians about.

So you remove that choice for everyone else that you tell about it? What about my free will?

my boy didn't die btw

op,if you were to become a Christian,Christians often start from a position of not necessarily knowing a great deal about the bible.
You already know heaps.
What was it that stopped you going to church. A particular Christian that you thought was behaving badly?

If you get fed up of me posting or asking questions on your thread,feel free to tell me,I wont be offended.
I can be a bit much for some people.

I don't think anyone has a brain that makes faith possible. It is entirely contrary to our nature, we don't want to believe, have no interest to believe, would far, far rather serve ourselves. As I said in my very rambly post.

I suppose it is usually when people are in extremis that they, we, start to look at things differently, start the quest to find comfort/answers in some way. though i did hear of one couple who were so overjoyed at the birth of their perfect twins that they had an overriding desire to thank someone/thing, and it was this joy that led them to start enquiring about God seriously. They are seriously outnumbered though!

bless you million

oop that sounds patronising! I meant you're great, million

maybe I know to much, amillionyears?

When I was first taken to church, it seemed plausible, the whole God thing. I was only a child though.

The more I read the bible though, the more it described a God who simply does not fit with my idea of how someone who wants to be worshipped just for being ought to behave.

And the more I thought that, the more all the platitudes about why a large proportion of people in the world have a tough time of it seemed to be false.

And then I learned about science and evolution and had to concede that both of the creation stories in Genesis were false, and then I realsied how large space is, and then no-one could ever provide a proper answer to my questions, and then I went on a confirmation course anyway and said all the right things, and wanted them to work, and nothing happened.

And still innocent children were starving to death even though God can and has provide food for people.

So I concluded that there is almost certainly no God, and if he is, he either isn't very nice, or isn't powerful enough.

God is powerful,hugely immensely,out of this world powerful and then some.

"he isnt very nice"
Being a Christian is about us making ourselves and our thoughts fit him.Not the other way round.
It is about us succumbing.
It is about us submitting.

I'm very glad you wanted the confirmation classes to work,very glad indeed.

ok.I'm going to have to tell you something else personal to me.
When I seeked,sought God I felt for years that it was 2 steps forward 1 step back.
To the point where I got very fed up with it all.Then I realised that "if you seek,then you will find". So I said to God,right it is up to you now.
I knew that God times things.So I said to God the timing for when I became a Christian was up to Him.
And then I relaxed about it all.I figured I would become a Christian one day,and it would happen before i died.I was about 31 years old at that point.
So,nothing happened for 6 months.I was surprised.I had expected something,i didnt know what,to happen sooner,but it didnt.Nothing different at all.
I had carried on going to church most sundays during this time.Then one sunday,I couldnt go.For some reason I felt I would be a hypocrite if I went. I had never felt like this before.I had very young children at the time.I gave them to my husband,and said to him,I was going into our bedroom,and I was not coming out until I had become a Christian. 2 hours later I came out,and had given my life to God.

That is a great story million

In the seeking there is usually an element of toil (except for the parents of the twins I mentioned earlier). I'm not sure you're toiling OP? Don't be offended, I am simply wondering where you are coming from, whether your enquiry is casual, or what. YOu seem to want to be convinced, but don't seem to be prepared to put the work in? Do you want the answer to be flopped on your plate while you do nothing, except post on an internet forum. That's easy. You're non-commital about eg who may or may not be praying for you when specifically asked; while believers line up, panting and eager, to lay jewels at your feet. It's a bit irritating of you OP, though I may have it wrong. Step up to the plate, do, if you're serious.

Machadynu (or 'backswing' as my iPhone wants to call you )
good questions, interesting thread.

Grimma "... religions wouldn't have evolved if there was nothing useful in them"'.... Maybe, maybe not. Could be they are just memes running wild - good at getting themselves reproduced, but not necessarily good for the host organism. I agree though, why people believe is fascinating.