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Philosophy/religion

The Book of Job

708 replies

Machadaynu · 30/09/2012 20:20

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:14

the point isspringydaff that I try and stop bad things happening to her - that is my instinct. I know I can't do it - the trips to A&E tell me that.

God can do it though- he can stop bad things happening to his children simply by removing all the bad choices. He just doesn't.

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:15

I keep being told that God tests us, springdaffs That all the bad things are there so it's not too easy for us, or something. So God can filter us when we're dead, or something?

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 00:22

3 and 13 OP - see you in 10



sorry, don't sign up to the test theory. It ain't like that. Kids are dying (eg) - God doesn't have time for 'tests'. He wants somebody (anybody) to get out there and do something about those kids, instead of sitting in their cosy houses with their cosy cars parked outside saying aww.

(nothing wrong with cosy houses/cars btw)

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:24

yes springy life is testing thats the point.

what us the purpose of our existence? why did God create us?

why are you asking all these questions?

I have explained,

  1. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested.


  1. And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allah will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars, (although Allah knows all that before putting them to test).


  1. Or those who do evil deeds think that they can outstrip Us (i.e. escape Our Punishment)? Evil is that which they judge!


  1. Whoever hopes for the Meeting with Allah, then Allah's Term is surely coming. and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.


  1. And whosoever strives, he strives only for himself. Verily, Allah is free of all wants from the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns, and all that exists).


  1. Those who believe and do righteous good deeds, surely, We shall remit from them their evil deeds and shall reward them according to the best of that which they used to do.


  1. And We have enjoined on man to be good and dutiful to his parents, but if they strive to make you join with Me (in worship) anything (as a partner) of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not. Unto Me is your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.


  1. And for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, surely, We shall make them enter in (the enterance of) the righteous (i.e. in Paradise).


10. Of mankind are some who say: "We believe in Allah," but if they are made to suffer for the sake of Allah, they consider the trial of mankind as Allah's punishment, and if victory comes from your Lord, (the hypocrites) will say: "Verily! We were with you (helping you)." Is not Allah Best Aware of what is in the breast of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns).

11. Verily, Allah knows those who believe, and verily, He knows the hypocrites [i.e. Allah will test the people with good and hard days to discriminate the good from the wicked (although Allah knows all that before putting them to test)].

12. And those who disbelieve say to those who believe: "Follow our way and we will verily bear your sins," never will they bear anything of their sins. Surely, they are liars.

13. And verily, they shall bear their own loads, and other loads besides their own, and verily, they shall be questioned on the Day of Resurrection about that which they used to fabricate.

14. And indeed We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people, and he stayed among them a thousand years less fifty years [inviting them to believe in the Oneness of Allah (Monotheism), and discard the false gods and other deities], and the Deluge overtook them while they were Zalimun (wrong-doers, polytheists, disbelievers, etc.).

15. Then We saved him and those with him in the ship, and made it (the ship) as an Ayah (a lesson, a warning, etc.) for the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

16. And (remember) Ibrahim (Abraham) when he said to his people: "Worship Allah (Alone), and fear Him, that is better for you if you did but know.

17. "You worship besides Allah only idols, and you only invent falsehood. Verily, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to give you provision, so seek your provision from Allah (Alone), and worship Him (Alone), and be grateful to Him. To Him (Alone) you will be brought back.

18. "And if you deny, then nations before you have denied (their Messengers). And the duty of the Messenger is only to convey (the Message) plainly."

19. See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

20. Say: "Travel in the land and see how (Allah) originated creation, and then Allah will bring forth (resurrect) the creation of the Hereafter (i.e. resurrection after death). Verily, Allah is Able to do all things."

21. He punishes whom He will, and shows mercy to whom He will, and to Him you will be returned.

22. And you cannot escape in the earth or in the heaven. And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (Protector or Guardian) nor any Helper.

23. And those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and the Meeting with Him, it is they who have no hope of My Mercy, and it is they who will (have) a painful torment.

24. So nothing was the answer of [Ibrahim's (Abraham)] people except that they said: "Kill him or burn him." Then Allah saved him from the fire. Verily, in this are indeed signs for a people who believe.

25. And [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said: "You have taken (for worship) idols instead of Allah, and the love between you is only in the life of this world, but on the Day of Resurrection, you shall disown each other, and curse each other, and your abode will be the Fire, and you shall have no helper."

26. So Lout (Lot) believed in him [Ibrahim's (Abraham) Message of Islamic Monotheism]. He [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said: "I will emigrate for the sake of my Lord. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

27. And We bestowed on him [Ibrahim (Abraham)], Ishaque (Isaac) and Ya'qub (Jacob), and ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) (to Musa - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to 'Iesa - Jesus), the Qur'an (to Muhammad ), all from the offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world, and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.

28. And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "You commit Al-Fahishah (sodomy the worst sin) which none has preceded you in (committing) it in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)."

29. "Verily, you do sodomy with men, and rob the wayfarer (travellers, etc.)! And practise Al-Munkar (disbelief and polytheism and every kind of evil wicked deed) in your meetings." But his people gave no answer except, that they said: "Bring Allah's Torment upon us if you are one of the truthful."

30. He said: "My Lord! Give me victory over the people who are Mufsidun (those who commit great crimes and sins, oppressors, tyrants, mischief-makers, corrupts).

31. And when Our Messengers came to Ibrahim (Abraham) with the glad tidings they said: "Verily, we are going to destroy the people of this [Lout's (Lot's)] town (i.e. the town of Sodom in Palestine) truly, its people have been Zalimun [wrong-doers, polytheists and disobedient to Allah, and have also belied their Messenger Lout (Lot)]."

32. Ibrahim (Abraham) said: "But there is Lout (Lot) in it." They said:"We know better who is there, we will verily save him [Lout (Lot)] and his family, except his wife, she will be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed along with those who will be destroyed from her folk)."

33. And when Our Messengers came to Lout (Lot), he was grieved because of them, and felt straitened on their account. They said: "Have no fear, and do not grieve! Truly, we shall save you and your family, except your wife, she will be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed along with those who will be destroyed from her folk).

34. Verily, we are about to bring down on the people of this town a great torment from the sky, because they have been rebellious (against Allah's Command)."

35. And indeed We have left thereof an evident Ayah (a lesson and a warning and a sign the place where the Dead Sea is now in Palestine) for a folk who understand.

36. And to (the people of) Madyan (Midian), We sent their brother Shu'aib (Shuaib). He said: "O my people! Worship Allah, and hope for (the reward of good deeds by worshipping Allah Alone, on) the last Day, and commit no mischief on the earth as Mufsidun (those who commit great crimes, oppressors, tyrants, mischief-makers, corrupts).

37. And they belied him [Shu'aib (Shuaib)], so the earthquake seized them, and they lay (dead), prostrate in their dwellings.

38. And 'Ad and Thamud (people)! And indeed (their destruction) is clearly apparent to you from their (ruined) dwellings. Shaitan (Satan) made their deeds fair-seeming to them, and turned them away from the (Right) Path, though they were intelligent.

39. And (We destroyed also) Qarun (Korah), Fir'aun (Pharaoh), and Haman. And indeed Musa (Moses) came to them with clear Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), but they were arrogant in the land, yet they could not outstrip Us (escape Our punishment).

40. So We punished each (of them) for his sins, of them were some on whom We sent Hasiban (a violent wind with shower of stones) [as the people of Lout (Lot)], and of them were some who were overtaken by As-Saihah [torment - awful cry, etc. (as Thamud or Shu'aib's people)], and of them were some whom We caused the earth to swallow [as Qarun (Korah)], and of them were some whom We drowned [as the people of Nuh (Noah), or Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his people]. It was not Allah Who wronged them, but they wronged themselves.

41. The likeness of those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) other than Allah is as the likeness of a spider, who builds (for itself) a house, but verily, the frailest (weakest) of houses is the spider's house; if they but knew.

42. Verily, Allah knows what things they invoke instead of Him. He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.

43. And these similitudes We put forward for mankind, but none will understand them except those who have knowledge (of Allah and His Signs, etc.).

44. (Allah says to His Prophet Muhammad ): "Allah (Alone) created the heavens and the earth with truth (and none shared Him in their creation)." Verily! Therein is surely a sign for those who believe.

45. Recite (O Muhammad ) what has been revealed to you of the Book (the Qur'an), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat). Verily, As-Salat (the prayer) prevents from Al-Fahsha' (i.e. great sins of every kind, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc.) and Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism, and every kind of evil wicked deed, etc.) and the remembering (praising, etc.) of (you by) Allah (in front of the angels) is greater indeed [than your remembering (praising, etc.) Allah in prayers, etc.]. And Allah knows what you do.

46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."

47. And thus We have sent down the Book (i.e this Qur'an) to you (O Muhammad ), and those whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) aforetime] believe therein as also do some of these (who are present with you now like 'Abdullah bin Salam) and none but the disbelievers reject Our Ayat [(proofs, si
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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 00:24

I also think OP that you can have NO IDEA how much God protects us from. You do your utmost, your kid ends up in A&E. God too.

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:25

yes springy daff I would agree he wants us to help each other, and that would be considered a righteous deed

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:25

springdaffs I don't claim to be perfect though. God does.

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:26

that's a big old copy and paste nailak Where is it from?

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:30

from nailak's post

" Of mankind are some who say: "We believe in Allah," but if they are made to suffer for the sake of Allah ..."
Why would Allah make people suffer for his sake?

"Verily, Allah knows those who believe, and verily, He knows the hypocrites [i.e. Allah will test the people with good and hard days to discriminate the good from the wicked (although Allah knows all that before putting them to test)]."
What is the point of doing a test to discover something you already know?

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 00:30

a 'righteous deed'?? It's got a name?? Confused

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 00:31

aw now come on OP, are you serious? or do you just want to chase this blighter around in circles?

just asking.

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:34

its Quran innit

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:34

right click and choose the search google option lol

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:35

the answer is in the first 2 verses


  1. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested.
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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:35

I don't get you daffs?

I'm telling you I do my best to protect the kid
You told me that bad things happen to her anyway
I said that's because I'm not perfect, but God is, so he could stop bad things happening if he wanted to.

The question is why he doesn't stop bad things happening. Why is he waiting for someone to do something about people starving when he could do something, or indeed could have done something long ago to stop it ever happening?

Two phrases come to mind here:

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke

What God wants, God gets - God help us all - Roger Waters

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:38

nailak I don't understand why you wouldn't be left alone if God knew whether or not you believed any way, before you said anything, and without testing.

I really don't see the point. Being left alone rather than 'tested' to discover something that is already known seems perfectly sensible to me. Has God got nothing better to do ?

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:40

I'm sad that verse(?) 46 has the words "except with such of them as do wrong" in it.

"And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)"

Without those words, I'd like that bit to be in every Holy Book.

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nailak · 02/10/2012 00:40

is the test for him or is it for us? God doesnt need us? if something has never happened we can turn around and say this is hypothetical we have never done anything.

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Machadaynu · 02/10/2012 00:42

I don't understand your last post at all nailak, sorry!

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 00:49

So, do you want to know him or do you want to talk/bitch about him? I can talk about him, if you like, but I'd rather you knew him then he could tell you himself where he's coming from. (I say 'he' but 'he's' genderless.)

That's a cop out (on my part) in a way. But in a way it's not. He makes it lavishly clear he wants to be known - in a personal sense, a relationship sense - so all the talking about him in the world isn't going to get you to know him. I could tell you about my mum but you wouldn't really 'get' her until you met her. Not really.

It's pretty awesome that he has set it up to work in relationship with us - to do what he wants, which is to 'save' the 'world' (or our bit anyway, and if everybody was doing it we'd have it covered). I think it comes down to power, which doesn't work in a vacuum. I expect the theologians could explain why power is needed - but then again, I think it's not that hard to see with the naked eye why power is needed.

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 01:01

38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:


2 ?Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.


4 ?Where were you when I laid the earth?s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone?
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?


8 ?Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ?This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt??


12 ?Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.


16 ?Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.


19 ?What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!


22 ?Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?


31 ?Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion?s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God?s[e] dominion over the earth?


34 ?Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ?Here we are??
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?


39 ?Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?


39 ?Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.


5 ?Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver?s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.


9 ?Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?


13 ?The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.


19 ?Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ?Aha!?
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.


26 ?Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.?

40 The Lord said to Job:


2 ?Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!?

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nailak · 02/10/2012 01:01

What is the benefit in doing our bit, and does it matter our intentions when doing it?

I would agree, in Islam our neighbours and our community has a right over us. There is another story when Allah tells the angels to destroy a town, and they go to the town and find a pious man there and all the other people were not nice, like cheaters, liars, didn't believe, hurt each other etc, and Allah told the angels to start the fire from that man's house, as his piety is nothing if he didn't do anything for those around him.

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nailak · 02/10/2012 01:02

That is a beautiful quote springy

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springydaffs · 02/10/2012 01:03
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nailak · 02/10/2012 01:04


Also watch this it is a sheykh saying how we are nothing and our worship is worthless if we don't help those around us, specifically women fleeing abuse,
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