The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

Why so so pleased?

I don't entirely reject the idea of a god one. I do however believe a lot of scientific facts that make it illogical to believe in Abrahamic texts. I also don't believe the idea of a "loving god" who rejects people out of vanity. Even if that kind of god was real I wouldn't worship an entity who declares I should not be vain but would reject me out of vanity.

The post where you condemned myself, snorbs and madhair.

Not madhair!
headinhands

GlassofRose, I realise some of your questions have gone unanswered.
And having reread your posts specifically, I do get the idea that you are genuinely searching and questioning.

We are not used by God for entertainment,far from it.
We all need discipline
I am not sure who said to you that God gives choice. We do have choice,but it comes as limited,and best to choose well imo.

Now the tricky one . "If God made wicked,are we at fault for our sins".
I suppose not.I may need a few days to ponder that one.
I have read somewhere in the bible that God knew us before we were born.

I would like to add that God cannot be found through science,evidence,probability.

night. You're saying we were all trained for millions of years for life on earth? How come some humans die before they're even born or just after? A lot of training for a few minutes no?

The training obviously fails spectacularly as so many people reject the Abrahamic god or even any god. Maybe god needs to get Gove in to overhaul the system?

Why can't God be found through evidence? Who benefits from the great mystery? Us? God?

You can get a psychology degree in 3 years but most humans fail to accept Jesus after millions of years of full time education? Or was it full time? Maybe it was like night school or something? Or distance learning? What teaching methods does he use? Does he have those whizzy interactive white boards yet? They're great? Please tell me he's not using the Oxford Reading Tree?!

Thing is million I very much doubt I'm any more 'wicked' than you so those passages obviously aren't referring to me.

People tend to follow the main religion of their country/parents. Seems a bit unfair for Yahweh to spend all that time training them and then send so many millions to be born in a part of the world where he knows they are more than 99% unlikely to accept the Bible. How is that fair?

GlassofRose,I have realised I have misread your post of 19.29pm in about 3 different ways,so apologies for my post of 19.53pm.

Snorbs,who benefits from the great mystery. I am not sure that we do,so it must be God.

headinhands,I am glad that you are no more wicked than me.
I cant decide if you have rejected God after knowing him,or not.

"I would like to add that God cannot be found through science,evidence,probability."

There is no reason why not. Do you believe in evolution? I do, the proof is there. Many things are proven by science

Great question btw.
Are you all RE teachers?

That should read Great questions

I believe what is written in the bible.
From what little I know,I dont think evolution fits very much with that.
I have said elsewhere before that science changes its mind.
And scientists agreed on the thread,and said that is ok,they do.
They realise they may well be saying different answers next week. So they dont expect people to totally believe in what they say,as they change their minds as well,and are quite happy to do that.

Do reject evolution because it doesn't fit in with what the bible says?

But scientists change their mind when their research brings up new evidence. They don't change it on a whim. They change it because they are learning. and as new information is brought to light they build on their knowledge. And as things stand their is no evidence for god and very convincing evidence for evolution.

To me,scientists are constantly changing their minds.Collectively daily.

No evidence for God ,nor ever will be.
And it wouldnt make a scrap of difference if Jesus himself came and stood before you.

evolution,it just doesnt make sense to me from an earthly point of view.I will agree to differ with you on that.

Really? I will assess evidence before me as and when it is presented. Why would I disregard such an opportunity?

Evolution doesn't make sense form an earthly point? But a supernatural entity zapping it all into place (along with fossils that disprove he did any zapping) makes sense to you?

I dont know if it is because I am getting tired,that I didnt understand your post of 21.23pm headinhands.

headinhands 22.00 But I have trouble because I start maybe agreeing with science stuff,and find out they have changed their minds.So it is never rock solid,it feels like I am trying to hold jelly.

post 22.03pm Yes

How does your body work
How does your brain work

Science only begins to scratch the surface of all this.
I keep thinking that if we were to return in 200 years time,our medicines,etc will all look so primitive.

million so why does it make sense to you that god created it all 'as is' but then made it look like evolution?

The best answer to the last few posts is Springdaffs post,actually on this thread,and from the book of Job!
Her post Tues 2 October 01.01 am

million my post of 21:23 was a response to night's post of 17:51 about us all having been trained by god for for millions of years before arriving on earth.