The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

amillion.

Science doesn't change all the time. It's usually additions rather than full changes. Perhaps you chose to overlook evolution for the bible because you feel you can trust it, it's not going to change so it's easy.

I do struggle to understand why evolution doesn't make sense to you. What do you mean by earthly point of view?

I don't see how you can look at evidence like this without understanding. Pretty straight forward www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn9989/dn9989-1_300.jpg

Natural History museum is fab www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/life/human-origins/modern-human-evolution/3d-hominid-skulls/index.html

Does he make it all look like evolution?
I do sometimes think about eg the giants causeway,the Grand Canyon and Ayres Rock. Were they made like that originally? I dont know. I dont know how old the earth really is.

Ah so you ascribe to the 'god of the gaps' school of thought which says 'The bits we don't understand are god.' Hope he's not claustrophobic.

Been to the natural history museum several times. Agree it is fab.
Non christians look at things from an eartly pov only,Christians try and look at things from both the earthly pov and the heavenly pov.

I try and understand it all,but obviously the bible is a very big book and I dont know it all.
God does not allow us to understand it all.Soemwhere the bible says something like,our knowledge is imperfect.

I didnt have a clue what that picture means GlassOfRose

Oh,and reading the bible understanding the bible,doing the bible is not easy!
Sacrificing parts of your life,is not easy.
Possible persecution is not easy.

It isnt called the narrow door for nothing.

Believing science is way easier.You can change your mind next week.

I don't see that I have much choice in 'believing science' as you put it seeing as its based on facts.

Non christians look at things from an eartly pov only,Christians try and look at things from both the earthly pov and the heavenly pov.

That's only true if you ignore all the other hundreds (thousands?) of religions out there. They all have their own creation myths. And Christians don't have exclusive rights to claim a "heavenly pov". I'd imagine the Muslims, for instance, might disagree with you on that score. And the Jews. And the Mormons. And the Pastafarians.

But given we cannot know the mind of God due to His mysterious and shy ways, nor are we really even supposed to ask these kinds of questions (because that's the clay asking the potter what's going on, isn't it?), is it not a bit presumptuous to claim that you have the slightest idea what the "heavenly pov" is in the first place?

Just as an aside, and intended in an entirely friendly manner to everyone on the thread, how many of you here have read the book of Job straight through? I ask because Job raises many of the same questions that you're discussing. If you haven't ever read it all the way through, I'd encourage you to do so, whether you're religious or not. Aside over!

Believing science is way easier.You can change your mind next week.

That is indeed possible, but science only changes its mind when there's evidence that suggests it was previously wrong.

Of course, you could change your mind next week about which bits of the Bible are The Literal Word Of God, which bits no longer apply (eg, the "Best Before 1AD" bits), which bits are allegorical, and of those bits that are allegorical, what lessons we should actually learn from those allegories (eg, the big difference of opinion here about what the Book of Job actually means).

After all, the Bible fully supports slavery. Modern Christianity (largely) doesn't. What changed, when and why? Was this an evidence-based thing or social whim?

headinhands,how can it be based on "facts"
when the "facts" may well not be "facts" next week?

You can't understand a row of skulls that shows difference?

Not all non Christians are without god amillion, it's a bit much to describe everyone non christian as having only a 1dimensional view. I think my lack of "heaven" gives me a more open view. Everything you see must somehow relate to what is written in a book.

History isn't fact, it is what has been recorded... I don't count the Bible as a history book, but I do believe the same can be said of it. Even if Christians have a true religion... surely man has not relayed fact word for word. You've got to be a bit open to whats outside of it I think.

Snorbs, but the papers are constantly full of stuff that says it was previously wrong.

amillionyears - a fact is something that is known or proven to be true. Fact's don't change on a weekly basis.

How can you base life on something with no evidence?

And scientists are happy with that.
That is one of the things that astounded me by coming on MN.
That scientists think like that,and are happy with it.

I dont change my mind about what is written in the bible.
The bible is a glorious and wondrous book and is inspired by God.
I need to go to bed now,goodnight to you all!

Scientists believe in evidence and proof... what is astounding about facts Surely believing in something that has no evidence to support it is more astounding.

Going back to what Snorbs said. Why is it okay to cherry pick which bits of the bible are taken literal? Ie. Slavery.

But if god can make provision without us accepting Jesus why did Jesus have to die? Why can't he judge us all like that? Even people who have heard of and reject the notion of Jesus will have done so based on elements beyond their control i.e. being brought up a Muslim or having a very sciencey/logical brain. Again as I have said before there is nothing to back up your theory in the bible and you are using your own logic to make it make some sort of sense.

headinhands - so true.

The theory that rejecting means there is no provision for you isn't logical to me. It would seem the only way you cannot weigh up the idea (reject) is if you were born into a family who tells you what your beliefs are and they happen to be the right ones.

amillion - you evidently don't understand the scientific method. Scientists don't 'change their minds' about the fundamentals of that at all. Theories have to be revised if new evidence comes to light - how could it be otherwise...

How does your body work
How does your brain work

Science only begins to scratch the surface of all this.
I keep thinking that if we were to return in 200 years time,our medicines,etc >will all look so primitive.

Exactly! that's why we keep on doing science, learning more about the real world, understanding more all the time! Its a wonderful way to spend your life Think how far we've come in the last 200 years, and the rate of progress has increased.

Slavery is an interesting question.
The slavery in the bible doesnt seem to mean the same thing as it does now.
Seemed to mean servants but i could be wrong.
And a servant could become a king,so again dont fully understand.