Cool Choirs, Clappy Choruses, Cringy Coffee: Religion Chat Thread No 5

[madhairday]

I thought seeing as our other thread has gone somewhere into the oblivion that is old MN pages, I would start us up again anew for a new term. This is a place for those who are Christians (and anyone who's not, we're not an exclusive little club) to chat about life, theology, church, any other stuff and of course Graham Kendrick, as nickel would not forgive me if I forgot to mention him

So all welcome, old and new, it would be fun to chat and chew over anything that comes to mind. Lurkers say hello!

Anyone got a nice juicy topic to get the ball rolling then? Or if not come say hi anyway and tell us how you are doing. :)

That came out as something of a rant, I'm afraid. Sorry, for my incoherent spouting.

We've had women ministers for years in the Church of Scotland. On reading ginger's post I think it may have led to a slightly more liberal attitude here.

Maybe should have said I'm from a Baptist background and have been used to female ministers all my life so I guess that's another reason why I find the attitude so offensive.

didn't there use to be another poster on these threads who decided she couldn't believe in God anymore after she couldn't take anymore of the the misogynist treatment of women by her husband and her church. I think her NN was KayHarker? I've wonder every now and then what happened in the end and how she is.

Oh ginger, I would have walked out of that church too, how utterly miserable and what utter bollocks they spouted :( :( This is what gets me so cross, men twisting words to suit their own agendas. Women have mistaken their calling? Heard it all now

Cloutie, I'd recommend Tom Wright's 'For everyone' series on Paul's letters - read the Ephesians one and you'll love how he describes the context and the accurate original meanings in the 'man as head' passage. It's utterly liberating. I think Paul has been much misunderstood, twisted and misinterpreted for a long time, and looking into some of his more 'difficult' passages has been fascinating. I think his view of women is far different to what is imagined. Any particular passage you really struggle with? happy to discuss :)

Oh yes, I remember Kay, I did wonder how she was getting on :(

I sometimes think when I read Paul that I'd love to know what was in the letters he was replying to. Those churches in Corinth and Ephesus were probably full of complete nitwits who wanted him to give definitive rulings on all sorts of little things that he probably didn't care about that much. You can see him now, thinking 'oh bollocks, what do I care about whether women have their heads covered, got to say something though since they're all running around like headless chickens in Corinth (or Ephesus, can't remember where that bit comes)'.

Yes, especially as he says different and seemingly opposing things in different situations, ie 'women should not speak' and 'I commend to you Lydia, leader of so and so church in

I used to be married to someone whose family were Brethren, so have had a little (very much second-hand) experience of people taking Paul very literally in their views on the position of women. Indirectly, probably part of the reason we're not still married (though a large part of that was also me being a truly awful person for a while... not proud of it at all ).

Anyway, how are you feeling MHD? Are you a bit better?

I'm doing OK, thanks TUO. Saw my consultant yesterday and she said if I'm not cleared up by next week to give her a ring to arrange for IVs again. Really don't want to, but do feel like I am improving so it won't come to that this time I hope. How are you?

Yes at the strict brethrens, must have been hard to live with, but I do know some brethren women who are more than happy with the way thigns are, some mormon women too...who am I to say they're wrong and all that but they are

Thanks for the book recommendation MHD. Hope you are feeling better today. I'll look the book up on Amazon. I'd like to be able to try and put Paul's writings into context. As has been pointed out, on the face of it they sometimes seem contradictory. Also, although I've heard people say that he was supportive of women I've never really understood the basis for these comments apart from the reference to Lydia.

It is funny to think about the role of women. I've a guilty pleasure - watching Real Housewives of Orange County - and it struck me yesterday that although the women involved seem very glamorous and confident many of them defer to their husbands over many things. Yesterday showed two of them being in a bit of a quandry over whether or not to increase work committments because their husbands weren't happy about it. Made me think that being expected to defer to the husband isn't just a religious thing but a strong cultural one too.

I used to attend a church where women were pretty limited in what they could do - certainly no preaching or teaching other men, nothing that could be construed as being 'in charge' of something. Some men in the church were very vocal about their views on 'women's roles'. We left, partly because I felt there was no place for me there.

I have family members who are very firm on Paul's teachings meaning that women cannot lead or teach, and that men are the leaders/heads of their marriage, submission expected of women etc :( Incidentally they are fine with no headcoverings and women praying in church, but there was an incident where a family member was not happy that a woman had prayed from the front at church without speaking to the pastor first. He told her husband to 'rein her in'!

pink, that's awful, and yes what double standards, I like to ask these people if they are happy to cut out their eyes if they fancy someone, or eat pork or something such

I wish people would educate themselves, and can't wait to see what St Paul has to say in heaven

The Levitical questions are still the funniest in this respect.

Hello, I've been lurking on here a while now. Been a Christian for (um) 25 years this coming January, and thought I'd finally stick up my head and say hello.

I guess you'll want the newbie questions answering :)

happy clappy or traditional?
Bit of both really. I like the old hymns for the words, newer ones for the good old praise. I've an Anglican background (mostly).

choir or singing group?
Singing group.

organ or keyboards/bands?
I like both, but we've got a band and some talented keyboard players

hymn books or screens?
depends if I've forgotten my reading specs. Screens are deffo better if you're hanging onto a child at the same time!

and the important one: do you like Graham Kendrick?
Some of his stuff. Some has been overplayed. I think every other song at CU when I first became a Christian was his.

"In Christ alone" is my favourite song (not a GK!) but I can never manage to sing it through as I end up howling my eyes out.

I agree about hanging onto a child - the choir's hymnbooks are music copies, so they stay open (because they're heavier!)

welcome to the thread :)

Welcome Moonbells.

Tom (NT) Wright has written a thoughtful article on Women in the church, it can be found here: ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Women_Service_Church.htm

Thanks for that link Mary, it was really interesting. As has been said above, it would be really good to know what was in the letters that had gone before. It's good to read some stuff that puts it into context.

Hello Moonbells

I agree about screens being better when you are trying to keep a child under control. DS2's favourite trick used to be crawling under the pew and dancing on the seat of the pew behind because he knew my arms were too short for me to reach over and grab him.

Hello all... Today DD2 was officially 'invested' as a server [proud mum emoticon]. We also had some rather fabulous angel-related hymns to celebrate Michaelmas [hums 'Angel voices ever singing'].

Oh, but I feel the need to share with you all - esp. nickel - that we have had GK for the last two Sunday's running!

Going to have a read of Mary's link now...

Hi, haven't posted for ages -can never be bothered on iphone to post long messages!
Tuo - you must be so proud. I really hope both DSs get involved as they get older.

Here are my newbie answers
happy clappy or traditional? - Definitely happy clappy
choir or singing group? - singing group - lots of Hillsong. Our music minister (yes we have one of those!) was the lead singer of a well known Christian band which toured the US until recently
organ or keyboards/bands? - band. The organ is used every week at our 8am service. We go to 5pm (there is also a 10am and 6.30pm)
hymn books or screens? Screens
and the important one: do you like Graham Kendrick? Haven't heard any of his stuff since my teenage years in a methodist church. Lets say it brings back memories....!

This weekend is our town's jazz festival so we had a jazz band in church today. The church is right in the middle of town so there were lots of visitors who came in just to listen to the music. We get this a lot normally, because our band is very "rocky", but today people stayed for the service, rather than leaving after the music - which was great.

Wow Sharks your church sounds good - which band is it? Can you give me a clue

Tuo aw at dd2 being invested and the lovely hymns :)

Mary, good link, yes it's basically a summary of some of the stuff he says in his 'for everyone' books on the letters etc - really enjoy his work and find it easy reading.

Welcome moonbells.

Tired today, went to a diocesan renewal day yesterday, was good. Got ds' birthday party in about an hour, he's having a laser quest party so thankfully not having ten 8 and 9 yr old boys in my house - but will still be knackering. All sorted I think...cake done, party bags done, what have I forgotten?

MHD hope the birthday party went ok -- we flatly said to DS1 (who's just 9), you're too old for parties now, you can take 2 friends for a treat. He was relieved, I think, finds parties worrying and stressful (he'd been trying to formulate a list of invitees for 6 months). But it was so wonderful not having to do the whole party thang.

We had 24 children, only 5 of whom came with their parents, at church yesterday and it was my turn to do Sunday school. Yikes! and all sorts of other stuff going on -- someone in tears during the Peace because she isn't coping with her son who has learning difficulties and challenging behaviour, a big extended family ruckus going on over the appearance in church of a problematic family member. Double yikes!!

In the afternoon DS2 and I went to choral evensong in Ely cathedral and it was so blissful have lovely music and surroundings, and nobody crying or shouting, and not to have to worry but just rest in God's presence. (It would have been even more blissful if the Cathedral choir hadn't been replaced for the evening by the choir of Milton Keynes Central church, good though they were, but you can't have everything.)

Tuo lovely news about dd2. Good to know that even cathedrals can't keep ol' Mr Servant King out

MHD its Revive. I personally hadn't heard of them but I have only been a Christian for 2 years! Apparently they supported Third Day a few times! It's really improved the music having him here, people literally walk off the street to come in and listen

we had a lovely day yesterday.

our communion service was harvest festival together with st mary's and we had Come ye thankful People Come and we plough the fing fields and fing scatter (my US spell-checker doesn't recognise the word plough...) and a Michaelmass hymn - Christ the fair glory of the holy angels, and St Mary's provided a CD with a holiday club song on it. you might know it - God made me
and it was with actions, which obv i joined in with and all the old folks looked bemused.
(don't tell anyone)
and we did Thou Visitest the Earth as our anthem and St Mary's did a stuart townend which was lovely but i can't remember which one it was.

then we went to st mary's for bring and share lunch and beetle drive
i've never done a beetle drive before and it was sooo exciting!

I love beetle drive! They don't happen often enough in my opinion!