Defending faith / witnessing on Msnet, dilemma

[foreversanguine]

Every now and then we've got threads on mumsnet discussing faith in AIBU and they get very animated, you see believers and atheists engaging in a heated exchange of polarised views.

Seems to me that without fail you get just a small handful, sometimes even just one christian against a much larger number of people taking complete piss of religion ( pardon the expression ) , reflecting a big presence of atheists on mumsnet.

My dilemma is this. From a christian point of view, is it worth it, does it please God, as on one hand you defending the faith and witness, but also by helping to carry on the thread you encourage such a barrage of blasphemy, very offensive to God and a sin for the offenders.

Some blasphemies against God, against Jesus, I 've come across just in the last few days are very hard to read and I am not exactly super sensitive.
They were voiced as a response to the believers' posts.

So is it good to post on such threads or does it in a way do disservice to God ?

Ah now I feel fairly strongly about this one, but I actually think it varies for different people. I like to join in these discussions as much as possible (though rubbish at the science side of things as an arty farty type) and feel (for myself) that it's an important part of who I am and what I do. I'm not explaining this too well, but there's a couple of factors to it I suppose:

I do like to talk and debate with people, to hear others POV, to test and question my own belief and stances on things, and these discussions help me to do this. A lot of people on these threads engage with the subject perfectly politely without resorting to name calling, there are a few who are regulars and we enjoy the banter a little bit I think, and it's all fairly friendly (Grimma springs to mind) - I just find the discussion stimulates me.

I like to stand up for my faith because I feel passionately about it and I think probably because of my circumstances I use the internet a lot and therefore part of my 'witness' is through the internet. I like MN and like the people on it, I therefore feel that it's something I should engage with.

As to blasphemy, etc, I really think God's big enough to deal with it, and if God is the God I believe in, a God who loves all God has made, then God will look beyond words. You could look at it this way I guess, that if Christians keep defending their faith then God's name is being praised as much as blasphemed. Thus to ignore such threads in case things become heated is possibly counterproductive.

I know this isn't making too much sense. Bit stream of conciousness-esque.

I said at the beginning this is for me. I really think that not all people on MN who happen to be Christians are 'called' to post on such threads. I've found like you say sometimes it seems one or two of us in the crowd but often at such times I've had some lovely pm's and FB messages of support, saying they didn't feel able to post but wanted to support what I was saying and praying etc. I think we can all have a part to play but through different ways.

I may be overthinking it somewhat. Sometimes it's just a discussion. BUt I know what you mean and have come to the conclusion for me that it's something I do. I have to feel in a fairly strong place spiritually though. I'm generally not strong physically but I need to be feeling at a good place in my own relationship with God. In fact the closer to God I feel the more I feel like posting on these threads.

Sorry, that's looong

Hmm you're not encouraging the blasphemy as such, as whether you're on the thread or not, it will happen. And God forgives sins according to religion?

I guess it depends on how strongly you feel you want to explain etc. The simple answer would be, not to engage on those type of threads.

I'm with MHD on this, and I have to say MHD that I think you do a fantastic job of clearly explaining your point of view in a very accessible way.

I think that threads such as the 'going to church' one at the moment offer a chance to show people who clearly have no experience of actual rl Christians that we are here and that we do know what we're talking about and that we're perfectly normal (in some ways ).

I always think too, that those who post are a small fraction of those who read (I know I often lurk and don't post) so you never know who you are reaching with the things you write.

Personally I'm not great at explaining myself and often find someone has already said what I wanted to say so don't post that often, but I'm grateful to those who do.

Thanks for your replies, I am not ignoring, haven't posted and run , just don't have much to add myself.

But am reading with interest !

I think it's generally better to post on threads to say "Actually we are here and we have an opinion and feelings too" rather than leave a lot of atheists to talk about us in our absence and perhaps go on believing that atheism is "the norm". But I don't tend to get involved in threads once they are long and argumentative as I just don't always feel I have the energy required to jump in at that point.

So, if I see a thread while it's just getting going, I'll usually join in and try to keep up. But if it's already long when I see it, I'll leave it alone - possibly failing to support fellow-believers by doing so!

The other tricky thing for me though is that, despite being a Christian, I often find myself disagreeing with other Christians as much as I disagree with the atheists on a thread. So I have to pick between pointing out that not all Christians (let alone other faiths) believe the same, and "glossing over" those issues to try to keep on track about why religion matters to me.

I don't think you can validly say that joining in with a thread encourages blasphemy - if that was the case, then the best choice for believers would be to always keep very quiet about their beliefs except when they know they are only in the presence of other believers or very nice polite people, and so depriving everyone else of even knowing that faith exists, or that "ordinary" people have faith. So stating your beliefs (reasonably calmly and politely) on a thread is a form of witness, even if it gives people an opportunity to tell you what they think of your beliefs. I would hope that a neutral observer might be more impressed by polite witness than by rude name-calling, and would weigh them up. Polite discussions on either side always seem more convincing to me than rudeness or arrogance (which do happen on either side too).

You put it so well AMIS. Nice to see you, haven't seen you around in a while. :)

Depends a bit on the thread. Sometimes it can be "feed the troll tuppence a bag" and those type of situations it can be best to ignore the thread. Other threads you have a sensible religious discussion between muslims, pagans, christians, hindus or athethist.

It is OK to disagree with people and its fine for people to disagree with me. Sometimes threads help me work out what I think and believe even if its different to other people. I find different view points interesting.

For example I found it surprising that muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Islam has very different ideas on sin and what is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or Jannah than Christians.

Why is it more important to act according to what God thinks, to save him from being insulted, to "defend" the faith or to 'please God' by showing that you are not complicit in heathen behaviours, than it is to help other people through your faith?

Is the point of witnessing just to sign up more supporters to God's cause, or is it about spreading the word of God so that more people can lead better, happier, kinder lives?

If it is in fact the latter, what does it matter that people reject the message and blaspheme? If people lead happy and fruitful lives anyway, then what is the harm to god if they choose not to follow the bible or other religious text?

One quibble that non-believers such as myself have with religion is that it often comes across as that the followers of the religion are more concerned that neither they nor other people make god upset by not believing and doing what he wants, rather than with god's word being a guide to how to lead a good life, which you should try to do for your own sake alone.

Sometimes I join in if I feel I have something to contribute; or if there's no-one stepping up to say anything, I probably feel it's beholden upon a Christian to engage with what is being enquired about, so sometimes, reluctantly, I step up to the plate. Is it worthwhile? Probably but not always. Is it hard work? Yes, always.

Other times I just really can't be bothered - esp with the sorts of threads and discussions that frequently go around in circles and deviate and proliferate into so many issues that the theist is left juggling two-dozen differing arguments/issues whilst non-theists throw more balls they simply pick up. To change the analogy, sometimes the goal-posts of discussions move so that persisting in those debates becomes meaningless.

For me, blasphemy is a total non-issue. Something might appear rude to me personally - certain ways of referring to people of faith, for example - but I'm not sure I think it bothers God at all; lovelessness, cruelty, pride, greed, poverty of spirit and action - these things are offensive, not blasphemy.

I think that apologetics (the defence of the Christian faith) is very valuable and God does use and equip many Christians to be apologists.

I don't think I am a natural apologist and don't think this is my spiritual gift. However, I will sometimes find myself in a situation where I am called to defend the Christian faith.

I think the biggest burden is dealing with plain rudeness, followed by a refusal to move on from an ignorant position. I find that most "enquiry" threads are just a set up, with the OP basically trolling.

Where I get my biggest encouragement is when I think of Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days. The challenges he dealt with from Satan are very similar to the type if comments we put up with today.

We also have to put on the full Armour of God. When faced with an apologetics thread, it is a good idea to prayerfully re-read Ephesians 6:10-18.

Mostly I don't get stuck in (but I am not on MN much - mostly just the prayer thread), but this thread has inspired me to go and post on the 'who goes to church?' thread in AIBU, so thanks!

I often admire Christians who do speak out on the threads in AIBU because I do not do so. Like AMIS I think that it is good for people who are following the threads to realise that atheism isn't the only voice and that there are other people with other opinions.

I do like talking about God, Christianity and the Bible, so I do sometimes get into AIBUs. :) I have learnt lots through doing so - I am not a sciencey person either do it's been really good for me to think about scientific aspects of faith. I'm quite busy though, so my MNing is quite sporadic, so I'm not very reliable :) (which is why I don't tend up post on the prayer thread - I'm too sporadic a MNer to contribute meaningfully to it. But glad it's there.)

Holo, I'm always glad when you post because you always sound so clear, I thought you knew a lot more sciencey-talk than me so leave that bit to you!! I always heave a sigh of relief when you, Dandy and CY are around, among others, on there types of threads :)

these

I like to respond to threads where the OP is asking a genuine question and I think that the discussion is an area that I am confident in my thinking on. I do avoid ones such as one that was posted this week where the OP appeared to just want to be insulting rather than engage in a reasonable debate.

I try to but I'm a bit sporadic on mn and so only do it if I see a thread fairly early on. 50+ posts and it's already entrenched!!

OP

I am an atheist. You may find this difficult to believe but I am quite passionate about what I believe. I have heard atheists described as having 'a lack of belief', I don't have a lack of belief, I just believe someone else.

I am possibly one of the people who has offended you. I'm sorry if that was the case.

I get particularly passionate when I seee things being done in the name of God, a god, a godess................ put in any deity that are detrimental to humans.

Some examples:

The young man who died recently after refusing a blood transfusion.

Mother Theresa teaaching 'natural contraception' to beggers with leprosy. Leprosy can be cured, the drugs are free. With her resources Mother Theresa could easily have set up a clinic and cured people but, because of her religeous beliefs, she didn't. (if you want a source for this read her speeech when she was given the Nobel Peace Prize).

Women being denied medical care. In Mexico if you have a misscarriage it is assumed you have had an illegal abortion. It is up to you to prove you didn't. If you can't prove that then you face 30 years in prison. In Chile if a woman has been diagnosed as having an ectopic pregnancy she cannot have an operation until the falopian tube has actually burst. A real danger to her health and to her life.

And please don't think I'm picking on Christians.

There is a Hindu godess who is linked with smallpox. That is one of many reasons why it took so long to irradicate - people belived they and/or their child were blessed if they got smallpox.

Many Muslims believe having a disabled child is a blessing. In Muslim communities, where it is common to marry your first cousin, there is a higher incidence of birth to disabled children. But they are seen as a plan from Allah, a blessing, and a second or third child with a disability is more blessing. There is a total rejection of science. Many genetic defects only happen if both parents carry the disease so if families were sccreened for diseases they would know that if a particular set of cousins were to marry, their children would or would likley have disabilities.

Ashkenazi Jews took this step with Tay-Sachs disease, and although about 1/30 carry the gene it is now very unusual for Jewish parents to have a child with the condition.

So I respect your right to practise your faith. But if your faith is making bad things happen or allowing bad things to continue, I will criticise it.

I'm also critical of C of E Bishops in the house of Lords, why should they make descisions about my health / life? I am also critical of fath schools. Many have mission statements that their purpose is to promote a particular faith rather than educate.

As a teacher I can apply to teach in any school, I cannot be disciminated against because of my race, sex or disability. I can be discriminated against because of my faith.

Christians have a priveliged place in the UK. All your major festivals are public holidays. Shops are only allowed to open certain hours on your day of worship (and I remember when they had to shut). You have automatic representation in one of the houses of parliament. You can discriminate against me in many many schools (yes I know other faiths can, but most faith schools are Christian).

I don't mean to upset / or antagonise, Iam just trying to give you a view from the other side.

I generally take a "don't feed the trolls" stance on any faith-related thread - they generally do become very confrontational.

I do not believe that anyone would ever experience a significant change of opinion in matters of religion/atheism because of what they read on a website. People don't engage with the web in that way. They come to websites to air their own views and experiences, and in some cases because they get a buzz from arguing. You can spend ages composing a perfect statement of your views that comes right from the heart, but it would not be an effective "witness".

This is not to say that you shouldn't post on these threads at all. It's worth posting a refutation when someone posts something like "All [Category X] think/do [action/belief Y]" where you are in that category and don't actually. But don't expect anything you say to change anything.

I think everyone on this thread hears the view from "the other side", sashh, - in fact, hears them frequently - and understands that there will be those in discussion on these issues who happen to antagonise and those who don't.

But this thread is not about the issues you raise (which are frequently raised), but about the issues involved in stepping up to the plate to discuss them.

Dandydan, Holo, Madhair ...and others..

I have appreciated chatting and debating with you.

I think in RL "being polite about religion" means not asking any questions (including in school, RE etc..) whereas on the Internet it is possible to have more robust discussions while still being polite and respectful to each other.

Whether it pleases god or is blasphemous I can't comment on

Most faith discussions I've seen on Mumsnet have been very polite, with a sharing of views and ideas, and though no one has switched sides, at least we all have a better understanding of where the other side is coming from. This can only be a good thing.

I think atheists shout loudly because they feel they haven't got a voice, and sometimes this verges into rudeness.

As for blasphemy, I suspect that the Divine is big enough to take the odd swear word.

I think everyone on this thread hears the view from "the other side", sashh, - in fact, hears them frequently - and understands that there will be those in discussion on these issues who happen to antagonise and those who don't.

I didn't intend to antagonise, sorry if I have.

I think atheists shout loudly because they feel they haven't got a voice, and sometimes this verges into rudeness.

I think this is why threads discussing various issues attracts many atheists - there is no atheist 'church', no bishops, often left out of debate and events in society at large where you'll get 'faith' representatives but no-one speaking up for those with no faith. Internet forums give equal access.

I groan inwardly when I see some of the language used by a few posters to describe believers - we all know the sort of thing, that sheds more heat than light and tends to derail serious discussion. The OP may find such posts hard to deal with - so do I at times! But at least I only have my own conscience to consult. For the OP - maybe fall back to WWJD? I don't think he shied away from discussion with people who had different ideas.