Defending faith / witnessing on Msnet, dilemma

[foreversanguine]

Every now and then we've got threads on mumsnet discussing faith in AIBU and they get very animated, you see believers and atheists engaging in a heated exchange of polarised views.

Seems to me that without fail you get just a small handful, sometimes even just one christian against a much larger number of people taking complete piss of religion ( pardon the expression ) , reflecting a big presence of atheists on mumsnet.

My dilemma is this. From a christian point of view, is it worth it, does it please God, as on one hand you defending the faith and witness, but also by helping to carry on the thread you encourage such a barrage of blasphemy, very offensive to God and a sin for the offenders.

Some blasphemies against God, against Jesus, I 've come across just in the last few days are very hard to read and I am not exactly super sensitive.
They were voiced as a response to the believers' posts.

So is it good to post on such threads or does it in a way do disservice to God ?

"It is important to me to understand doctrine, and it greatly enriches my religious understanding, but subjects like kindness, hope, faith, honesty, hard work, morality, and humility are the things I believe are most important when I study religion."

All of those, except faith are most important when I study philosophy and think how I live my life- they are not the sole preserve of the religious, you know!

And I honestly think that the presumption in this country is that you will be at least nominally religious. Saying you aree an atheist is generally met with embarrassed foot shuffling or antagonism in my experience!

seeker - I was just about to say that

Mad - yes, I know. I think I've even tried to point that sort of thing out in previous discussions before - faith is more in the heart than the head. Losing faith (for me) was partly logic-driven but felt more like falling out of love. (until the point where I came to the conclusion that the object of my affections was a delusion which made it easier - again, that's my subjective experience)

All these people saying that saying they are an atheist is met with embarrassment and foot shuffling.... Boy we need to swop social circles i have no other catholic friends and I would say about 10 per cent if my friends are religious. I have actually had an awful time with in laws due to my Catholicism. I am treated by most if the people I know as a slightly nuts novelty due to my faith tbh.

Just goes to show we do have quite diverse social groups though

Seeker I don't think anyone suggested that those priorities were exclusive to religion on here.

To be honest ethelb- if you get that reaction, I think it is because you are a Catholic, not because you are a Christian. If you were a vague Anglican I don't think there would be a shuffling foot in sight.

Yes Grimma I know it would be the same for me if that ever happened because it is such an intense love thing, sometimes the emotions are close to that whole heady in-love thing. For me though there's a depth underpinning those which remains when the feelings are not there. I always feel sad when I read about your experience, but know you're happy with it so shouldn't

@seeker but then isn't it fair to say that Catholics in Britain are a bit of an underdog then? I do get how repulsive the catholic church may seem but I still think it is an unacceptable and easy prejudice though.

I feel very sorry for rank-and-file Catholics at the moment.

There is particular against Catholics, yes. But that is a very different to saying that Christians are underdogs.

Sorry- Whois say particular prejudice against Catholics.

Seeker is either drunk far too early or she's on an iphone.

Or both.......?

Sorry!

I'll join you in the now, having got dc home from manic school hell fayre.

I don't mind people witnessing their faith or having interesting debates about their beliefs.

But I do mind when people of faith refuse to believe that many of us are entirely capable of living worthwhile, moral and happy lives without the need for a god and deeply uneasy about many things done in the name of religion.

I

Seeker I assumed you were making a very precise philosophical point that I was too drunk to understand

@star the thing is that anyone who gas suggested that on mumsbet gas been shot down v quickly by theists atheists etc alike.

I think any suggestion of superiority if belief rightly gets people's hackles up.

Yep. Anyone suggesting belief makes them a better person has way missed the point Jesus was making. It always makes my heart sink if I see a post insinuating that atheists are somehow less good. I don't see that too often, thankfully.

I meant any belief system including those that are not based on religion. But yes you are right.

Poor Jesus. Would be spinning in his grave. If he had one

Op, you ask in your OP if defending displeases God if it leads to a barrage of blasphemy.

Interesting.

I spent some time today with a Jehovah's Witness. A lot of people in the western world will turn their nose up a t JW, especially their non celebrating of Christmas and Birthdays.

This woman, while explaining her beliefs, was so open, friendly and unreserved it was awe inspiring. So many people apologise for and try to justify their beliefs, just to fit in with those around them. While I'm not about to start ignoring Christmas, I was left with total respect for her beliefs.

I think God would be pretty impressed with her, and the way she conducts her life.

I don't think God would be upset with people for not having a faith if they lead good lives.

I would love to see the look on the face of an atheist who lived a good life, and then found themselves in heaven. Because I believe at the end of the day it is only God who judges.

ethelb I want to 'like' that post.

Lynette I believe that too, and totally trust that God is just.

To all those who follow Judaism, Islam and Christianity or any other monotheistic cult I say: you only believe in one more god than I do. Mind you, I believe in equality, unlike the three cults I mentioned.

To borrow a quote from George Carlin 'Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet and they have to touch it to be sure'.

I believe in science, not the many thousands of 'gods'.

Back to the OP - it did occur to me that, whether it pleases God or not, Jesus predicted insults - Mat 5:11

Oh dear, does that mean we're doing you out of reward in heaven if we play nicely?

Mad, sciencelover, Niminpiminy -

I think the reason atheists focus on doctrine and supernatural belief is because it is the bit we don't "get".

I mean kindness, hope, honesty, hard work, morality, and humility we can all understand.

I think feelings of awe, wonder, transcendence, flow, oneness with the universe, exctasy, love, optimism, self-acceptance, passion, optimism - a bit harder to put your finger on, but not isolated to religion. Some people get these feelings from meditation, zumba, their football team, nature, dancing ....many people find their own ways to get those kinds of feelings. Its an important part of human experiencd but it's not a great mystery.

I think the thing with religion is that it does make extraordinary claims, and it draws it's moral force from these claims. That's what makes it different.

Himalaya, faith isn't about feelings but about practice.

At the centre of Christianity is a relationship between you and God through the medium of Christ. Like any relationship, this has moments of high feeling (as you say "we, wonder, transcendence, flow, oneness with the universe, exctasy, love, optimism, self-acceptance, passion, optimism") and moments of low feeling (anger, hurt, rejection, sadness, disappointment and so on). But much of the time the feeling is not the main point of it, it's the doing, day in day out. (In fact, quite a lot of the time one doesn't feel anything much at all.)

Praying, communal worship, study and living for others is how you 'do' your relationship with God, and day to day prayer is the most important of these. Prayer is the life-blood of your relationship with God. Just like any other relationship, sometimes it's great, and easy; sometimes you don't feel much like it. But like any other relationship it gets richer as you stick with it through good times and bad.

'What I believe' is important, and I'm happy to talk about doctrine: I'm interested in theology. But what makes me be a Christian is not what I say, and not what I feel, but what I do. That's the part of faith that, in my experience, tends to get left out of these discussions. And what I've been trying to say in my posts here is that I think it would be good if, sometimes, atheists who want to debate matters of faith, could try and understand this core of faith, instead of endlessly setting up the debate to be about doctrine.