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Original poster

Islam - is anyone interested in it? No preaching, just asking...

228 replies

PasseBlanc · 10/06/2012 21:37

Just wondering if anyone here is or has ever been interested in coming to Islam, despite all the bad press/media hype etc?

I'm not here to quote and preach, I just want to maybe answer a few questions from my own perspective as a convert/revert muslim and give a bit of evidence.

Your thoughts/opinions/questions welcome

OP posts:
TheProvincialLady · 12/06/2012 19:08

...and France, if you go by their film industryGrin Thanks, I'll do some looking around myself then.

KalSkirata · 12/06/2012 19:10

Hollywood movies. Harrison Ford and Clint are often old enough to be the love interests Grand-dad!

alexpolismum · 12/06/2012 19:24

ProvincialLady thankyou for that. A very honest, simple answer. I suppose that it is a feeling of faith despite the lack of evidence.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 20:00

I think what entropygirl is getting at is how would God have been OK with that? Or has God's morals changed since then?

sciencelover · 12/06/2012 20:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 20:12

Why didn't he make us so we would be ready quicker? Or be made ready?

Are we an experiment, do you think? See how many generations it takes for them to get this idea or that moral concept...

alexpolismum · 12/06/2012 20:13

what you're saying is that god doesn't have a very high opinion of his own creation - "he knows we would fail and give up". Why? Plenty of people hold fast to very high ideals and moral paths for many many years.

I agree that people's perceptions of morality change over time, but I think the point is that God should be above that. We can't say that one religion is valid for all time if God starts changing his moral stance.

KalSkirata · 12/06/2012 20:18

its all about free will innit

Downtherabbithole · 12/06/2012 20:18

I have a question I would like to ask. From what I understand (and I am not an expert) Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. But Jesus claimed that he was the son of God, that he was the way the truth and the life, that people had to follow him and him alone to be reconciled to God and find salvation. So how do Muslims explain that? If he was just a prophet then was he lying about being the Son of God and if he was lying how could he be God's prophet?

nailak · 12/06/2012 20:32

Where did Jesus peace be upon him, say he was the son of God? Anyway we believe he called God Abba as in father yes, but in the way that we are all the children of God, tbh I dont know that much about comparative religion.

But yes he was the way and the light as he was the prophet sent down with the law (shariah) for that time and place. So in order to follow God and find salvation (heaven/jannah) that you would have to follow him.

Also we dont believe in the infallibility of the Bible.

We believe there were 124000 prophets sent to every nation at every time, and those revelations and laws were for that particular people at that particular time, for example the laws about marriage for Adam and Eve peace be upon them boths off spring are different to the laws of marriage now.

And we believe that Muhammad peace be upon him, is the last and final messenger, sent for every nation for all time. and the Quran is the last and final book of God.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 20:44

"Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. But Jesus claimed that he was the son of God, that he was the way the truth and the life, that people had to follow him and him alone to be reconciled to God and find salvation. So how do Muslims explain that?"

Are you sure Jesus claimed that? I thought that there was considerable ambiguity on this subject until the First Council of Nicaea where a decision was reached: Jesus was the Son of God, God himself.

Quran says that Islam was sent because people lost their way again (i.e. Christianity was led astray) and this divinity business is a major part of it. I'm too lazy to look for quotes now, but the general idea is that God wasn't happy that his messenger Jesus was now being considered God and worshipped, with praying to his pictures and statues in every church.

This is why it is very clear in Islam that Mohammad was a messenger, and only God is to be worshipped and also why there is a very strict rule of NO PICTURES of Mohammad - so people can't worship his pictures like they did with Jesus. (Naturally, this turned into a silly craze of no pictures of any person whatsoever for a while, which is why traditional Islamic art is basically a lot of geometrical shapes Smile)

KalSkirata · 12/06/2012 20:47

Did Jesus claim to be Son, actual Son of God? Or did people writing decades after his death in Greek, not Aramaic either big him up or mistranslate early papers. The books of historical Bible studies are very interesting on this.
I'm currently reading 'First Century Christianity' that explores the history and possible writers of the Gospels. Pauls contributions and theology, the Q document and then the established church about 300 CE deciding what was doctrine and dismissing the rest.

Downtherabbithole · 12/06/2012 21:13

John 14:6 Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life, noone comes to the Father except through me".

But then if you don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible then it doesn't really make any difference to give you Biblical quotes as you will say that that bit is wrong etc. (Not being judgey here just saying that if you think the Bible isn't accurate or true there's no point bringing a Bible quote to the table as it won't be convincing evidence).

Will have to come back on son of God point another time as am making dinner now and don't have time, but in Matthew 11:27 it says "all things have been committed to me by my Father, no-one knows the Son except the Father, and no-one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him".

nailak · 12/06/2012 21:18

but i am not saying it is wrong, i am saying no one at that time would have reached God without following the way of Jesus peace be upon him.
However just like the teachings of Jesus and the gospels aboragated previous scriptures and prophets, the teachings of the Quran and Muhammad aboragated them.

i dont get that last quote, can someone explain

crescentmoon · 12/06/2012 21:18

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 21:19

"nooone knows the Father except through me" sounds like Jesus is saying he is the messenger of the Father (of all people?)

It's been a long time since I have read the Bible but I don't remember Jesus saying flat out "I'm actually God, so worship me". If it were that clear, First Council of Nicea wouldn't have to vote on it.

sciencelover · 12/06/2012 21:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jinsei · 12/06/2012 21:47

I am interested in all religions but follow none. I do think that Islam is portrayed very negatively (and unfairly) in our media. Sadly, the approach taken by people like the OP merely serves to alienate people further.:(

I also think the arguments about scientific foreknowledge are rather a red herring. Many Christians make similar claims about the bible, and some Hindus claim the same about the ancient Vedic texts. I don't think these arguments tell us anything.

As a fairly interested and open-minded non-believer, I am often surprised at the way in which advocates of various religions try to prove that their chosen path is the right one. Surely the whole point is that there is no proof, and belief is based on faith. Isn't it? I genuinely do respect all beliefs, but when people start trying to prove things that simply can't be proved, I think they quickly start to lose the argument.

Downtherabbithole · 12/06/2012 21:48

But nailak the New Testament says that Jesus fulfilled the previous scriptures and prophets I.e. All the prophecies about the Messiah, he didn't abrogate them. Jesus himself quotes the Old Testament prophets as the word of God.

Have I understood you correctly that you believe Mohammed abrogated all previous prophets? Does that mean its possible that a new prophet could come along and abrogate what Mohammed said or he is kind of like the "last" prophet in your opinion?

Downtherabbithole · 12/06/2012 21:55

Jinsei I totally agree. If there were incontrovertible proof in a Deity then there would be no faith would there? I think it comes down to evaluating all of the evidence and then either making a step of faith or not.

I became a Christian very reluctantly because I looked into all the evidence and was convinced in its truth, despite really really not wanting to believe it. I then made a step of faith (I say step not leap because to me the facts were pretty strong and I also started just getting a feeling that it was true) and since then have experienced God on a very personal and spiritual level that is the closest to proof I could ever experience, but that isn't something which is easy to explain to other people.

I was actuaLly getting married to a Jewish man when I became a Christian and he broke up with me as he didn't feel he could marry a Christian. That's just one of the reasons I say I became a Christian reluctantly!

Jinsei · 12/06/2012 22:06

I became a Christian very reluctantly because I looked into all the evidence and was convinced in its truth, despite really really not wanting to believe it. I then made a step of faith (I say step not leap because to me the facts were pretty strong and I also started just getting a feeling that it was true) and since then have experienced God on a very personal and spiritual level that is the closest to proof I could ever experience, but that isn't something which is easy to explain to other people.

Ah, the polar opposite of me! Grin I am a reluctant non-believer, but having looked into most of the world's major religions, I find myself convinced by none of them. I tried very hard with Christianity - attended church regularly, even persuaded myself enough to get baptised. But eventually I had to face the hard truth that I just didn't buy it. I truly think that faith is a gift. I would love to have a firm belief in something, but I don't. I am tending more towards atheism these days, but would describe myself as agnostic, as I don't really think that any of us "know". And atheism is based as much on faith as any religion.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 22:13

Down - It wouldn't be nailak's opinion. God has said in Islam that there will be no more prophets, that Mohammad is the last prophet.

I think what she means by "abrogate" there is that Christianity replaced Judaism, and Islam has replaced Christianity. If you accept that the same God sent all three religions, the logic would be clear even if God hadn't said so.

"Jesus himself quotes the Old Testament prophets as the word of God."

And Quran quotes both Old Testament and New Testament prophets as the word of God. All consistent with the same God sending all three religions, one after the other as the previous one failed or somehow fell short of His expectations.

KalSkirata · 12/06/2012 22:15

the Messiah was meant to bring the sword and free Israel so according to Jews Jesus wasnt it.
explained well there.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 22:15

"And atheism is based as much on faith as any religion."

Err, no.

Don't take atheism to mean "We believe there is no God", which would be a position of faith as there is no proof that he doesn't exist, either.

Atheism simply means "We don't buy your God story. You have no evidence and it just doesn't make sense". As such, it is not based on faith, at all.

Jinsei · 12/06/2012 22:23

I take your point, cote but many of the atheists I know do believe passionately that there is no god. My father, for instance, is a fairly evangelical atheist who is entirely convinced of the rightness of his own position. I believe that his position is as much based on faith as that of many religious people. How would you define such beliefs if not in terms of atheism?