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Philosophy/religion

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Islam - is anyone interested in it? No preaching, just asking...

228 replies

PasseBlanc · 10/06/2012 21:37

Just wondering if anyone here is or has ever been interested in coming to Islam, despite all the bad press/media hype etc?

I'm not here to quote and preach, I just want to maybe answer a few questions from my own perspective as a convert/revert muslim and give a bit of evidence.

Your thoughts/opinions/questions welcome

OP posts:
nailak · 11/06/2012 09:56

inshallah cote

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 10:39

I find myself on Cotes side too. Which is rare. But launching a thread about Islam about the science seemed such a weird thing to do. On chat.
Why?
Kinda reminded me of the time an 18 yo converted and joined our sister's circle. The girl asked about practising Islam well and instead of talking about God, good deeds and prayers, one Salafi sister launched into endless videos about it being haram to pluck one's eyebrows. WTF?!
It was How to make people dislike Islam 101 honestly. As is some of the OP's stuff.

entropygirl · 11/06/2012 10:45

I have a question...is the idea here that because there are things in the Qur'an that we don't think the people who wrote it would have know about that this constitutes evidence of God?

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 10:50

some muslims use it that way, yes.

crescentmoon · 11/06/2012 11:30

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KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 11:48

It has now remained unchanged for a long time but originally there were various qurans circulating with differences. Due to faulty memories mainly and the fact that no-one (no one person) had collected all the Surahs. Uthman ordered that Hafsa's copy be copied due to all the arguments and all the others to be destroyed.
Thats just history and takes nothing away from the Quran but it has passed through human hands just like the Torah and NT.

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 11:50

Even the Prophet (pbuh) forgot the odd bit acording to hadiths
''A'isha reported that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) heard a person reciting the Qur'an at night. Upon this he said: May Allah show mercy to him; he has reminded me of such and such a verse which I had missed in such and such a surah.
Sahih Muslim 4:1720'

crescentmoon · 11/06/2012 12:00

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entropygirl · 11/06/2012 12:32

Right. Is it the case that nobody at that time had the information or is it that the people writing the book are assumed not to have had the information at that time?

I ask because the embryo stuff mentioned earlier is clearly knowledge that did exist but might not have been in the hands of the writers.

crescentmoon · 11/06/2012 13:26

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entropygirl · 11/06/2012 14:45

hmm....surprisingly well written considering....this isn't very strong evidence that it was in fact delivered direct from God.

I would like to ask some questions about the whole Aisha child bride thing....but I am worried people will think I am being aggressive. What I have heard has come from anti-muslim sources so I wouldn't mind hearing the Muslim version though...

Anyone willing to talk about that?

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 15:00

Two documents I found are...
here
and
here

Interesting stuff. Weirdly enough in the UK it went from 12 to 10 in the 16th century. Cant find any reason why though. In most cultures it was puberty as many places didnt keep a count of birth year. Puberty and periods were considered 'adult'.

entropygirl · 11/06/2012 17:12

Right...so Hadith are interpretations then? Does it say anything in the Qur'an itself about Aisha (relevant to this)?

entropygirl · 11/06/2012 17:13

regarding puberty and adulthood......do you agree with this definition? That it should not be considered rape if the child has menstruated?

entropygirl · 11/06/2012 17:15

ah..it would seem that she is not mentioned in the Qur'an.

well that answers one issue.

nailak · 11/06/2012 17:24

yes she is, just not by name.

nailak · 11/06/2012 17:26

Al-Tirmidhi reported via Sammaak from ?Ikrimah from Ibn ?Abbaas that he said: ?Sawdah was afraid that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would divorce her, so she said: ?O Messenger of Allaah, do not divorce me; give my day to ?Aa?ishah.? So he did so. Then this aayah was revealed.? ?And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on her husband?s part there is no sin on them both if they make terms of peace between themselves; and making peace is better?? [al-Nisaa? 4:128].?
Quran 24:4: And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh).
Quite conveniently, there were exactly three witnesses against Aisha.
Quran 24:11: Verily, those who brought forth the slander (against 'Âishah) are a group among you. Consider it not a bad thing for you. Nay, it is good for you. To every man among them will be paid that which he had earned of the sin, and as for him among them who had the greater share therein, his will be a great torment.
meaning Hassan b. Thabit and his companions who said what they said.
Quran 24:12: Why then did not the believers, men and women, when you heard it (the slander), think good of their own people and say: "This (charge) is an obvious lie?"
Probably because it was not all that obvious a lie. Aisha at this time was 14 years, and presumably well into puberty. Like any other teenager, the hormones would be awakening and she might be attracted by the idea of sharing her body with of her own choice, not to mention of her own age. Further, Muhammad kept adding more women to his harem, having recieved an explicit permission from Allah to do so, and took advantage of his captives as well. Aisha was, as recorded in the hadith, seriously jealous about this:
Muslim:C14B39N6759 ?Aisha, the wife of Allah?s Apostle, reported: ?Allah?s Messenger left my apartment during the night. Then he came and he saw me in an agitated state.? He said: ?Aisha, what has happened to you? Do you feel jealous?? I said: ?How can it be that a girl like me would not feel jealous in regard to a husband like you?
Jealous and immature teenagers make mistakes. The story simply sounded probable.
Quran 24:13: Why did they not produce four witnesses against him? Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses! Then with Allâh, they are the liars.
One might of course ponder the matter from the side of Muhammad. Apart from the attractiveness of Aisha or the humiliation of Muhammad not being in control of his women, Aisha was the daughter of (future caliph) Abu Bakr, a staunch ally from the Meccan days, not a family to split with. But Muhammad himself gives a very different clue as to why he didn't simply divorce Aisha and content himself with the dozen or so other wives he had:
Bukhari:V5B57N119 Muhammad said: ?Um, don?t trouble me by harming Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration [Qur?an surahs] never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman among you except her.?
On the other hand, getting too close to the potential problems of religious scripture inspired by sex with under-age girls is probably not nice.
Quran 24:23: Those who slander chaste women, indiscreet and careless but believing, are cursed in this life and in the hereafter: for them is an awful doom. On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to what they did. On that Day Allah will pay them back their just reward.
The doom is indeed awful for the witnesses. One should think that the flogging would do, but no. Eternal damnation goes on top of the whipping.
Related:
Bukhari, 8/6814: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allâh's Messenger and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Allâh's Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.
Fatal attraction... The notion of illegal sexual intercourse is quite alien to westeners. Unfortunately, it is the harsh reality for the vast majority of Muslim women today. They are not permitted to choose themselves who to share their homes and bodies with.
When this came down about Aisha and about those who spoke about her, Abu Bakr, who used to make an allowance to Mistah because he was of his kin and needy, said: "Never will I give anything to Mistah again, nor will I ever help him in any way after what he said about Aisha and brought evil on us." So Allah sent down concerning that:
Quran 24:22: And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masâkîn (the needy), and those who left their homes for Allâh's Cause. Let them pardon and forgive.
Abu Bakr said: "Yes, by Allah, I want Allah to forgive me," so he continued the allowance to Mistah.
One may wonder why Allah has to interfere in a detail like this, where a word from Muhammad most likely would have been sufficient for Abu Bakr, the long-term ally and future caliph.

nailak · 11/06/2012 17:28

obviously i dispute some of that article

Eruvande · 11/06/2012 17:31

Is it true that if I converted/reverted to Islam I'd have to divorce my non-Muslim husband? I was a bit Hmm when I heard that and wonder if I was just reading an extremist website.

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 17:43

Eruvade - that depends on which scholar you ask. There are some who say you must (the majority) but now a fair few who say you dont. The Prophets grand-daughter (I think) was married to a non-muslim. He eventually converted.
Given a fair few western women now convert while already married some scholars say its a bigger sin to destroy the family by leaving the husband and depriving the children of their dad. Its nice to see some common sense.

The verse cited tells men who they may or may not marry - people of the book. Its addressed to men. So some scholars say it doesnt apply to women. But we've had 1400 years of patriarchal interpretation ho de hum. I know a fair few converts who remain married to non-muslim husbands and born muslim women who have married non-muslims. Of course you then get the catbumfaces in the mosque....

sciencelover · 11/06/2012 17:55

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KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 18:00

its just common practice. A form of respect. It means 'Peace be upon him'. Sometimes you'll see SAW - ṣallā Allāhu ʿalay-hi wa-sallam
Its said after any Prophet's name or mention, including Jesus and Moses. Some lazy typists dont...(thats me)

KalSkirata · 11/06/2012 18:01

no idea where those numbers came from
Salla allahu alaihi wa sallam

crescentmoon · 11/06/2012 18:02

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nailak · 11/06/2012 18:19

Eruvande no one with any sense would expect a convert to drop everything and change completely overnight, there is no point in ritual without belief. You have to understand why you are doing things and believe in the reasoning, not just follow fatwas.

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