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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Reiki

542 replies

Fanatic · 06/06/2012 15:30

Has anyone tried Reiki? Could you tell me a little bit about it?

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 11/06/2012 20:10

Ghost - Are you saying that Reiki is a religion? Does it work only if you believe, like prayer?

comfortmewithapples · 11/06/2012 20:12

Surely you should answer Banana's question, Cote, since you are demanding answers to your questions?

angelicstar · 11/06/2012 20:13

Maybe your hairdresser was doing reiki on you cofedazure

GhostOfAWasp · 11/06/2012 20:18

No, I'm not saying that.

Are the ranters being so aggressive in the interests of compassion and saving innocent people from being defrauded by evil woo practitioners? Or simply to get kicks from flexing their assumed intellectual superiority?

If its the latter you might want to think about your motivation. If its the former, you might want to think about your delivery. Smile

CoteDAzur · 11/06/2012 20:21

banana - Why would I ridicule you for saying you did something and it relaxed you?

My question was about people saying it is not to be used on its own but should be used as "complementary" to another treatment (which works, presumably). I'm asking why it should only be used to complement another treatment if it actually works?

The answer, obviously, is that it doesn't work. And that is why you are only told to use it as complement to a real treatment. Like homeopathy or prayer - doctors don't mind you doing them as long as you don't stop your real treatment.

CoteDAzur · 11/06/2012 20:23

comfortme - I have a RL that demands my attention, too, so do be patient. I can't answer every post instantly.

CoteDAzur · 11/06/2012 20:29

angelic - No, she only washes my hair, then blow dries it. It relaxes me (I often yawn Smile) but it is nothing magical. It is an example to show that you don't need magical powers of a "master" channelling the love energy of the universe Hmm for relaxation.

comfortmewithapples · 11/06/2012 20:51

GhostOfAWasp makes a very good point. Couldn't have said it better myself. Grin

LeBFG · 11/06/2012 20:54

Clearly, posters on here are falling into two camps. The 'believers' and the scientists. The mistake is often made that scientists have some sort of agenda to 'explain' things or prove the world conforms to some pre-agreed norm. Science is not even agnositc. It has no morals or insight. It is purely a tool.

Anyway, about this reiki business and other alternative/complementary whatever-you-like-to-call-it stuff: clearly, there is no proof it works over and above the placebo. At this point DH and I fall out. I always argue that the placebo helps some people over and above zero intervention - it's been shown the placebo is suprisingly enormous in some trials actually. This being the case, why not let people get on and enjoy their favorite non treatment. At least you know for sure there are no harmful side-effects, and some believers may benefit. He argues the charlatans get rich on the back of gullible sorts.

Now I live in the home of homeopathic medicine, I have to agree. It's pretty disgusting the amount of money these potion peddlars make. And on top of it, it can be harmful as people believe this crap works and avoid making plans to do stuff which might actually have a real effect e.g. DM goes to reiki instead of taking her anti-depressants.

LeBFG · 11/06/2012 20:59

As an add on before going: the anti-woo posters on here are spouting on with their intellectually superior knowlege in reaction the the endless pseudo-science crap spouted by the believers. If the believers didn't feel the need to reinvent quantum physics to put some 'science' behind their claims, perhaps the scientists would lay off.

comfortmewithapples · 11/06/2012 21:01

Well, at least you are able to post with rudeness, LeBFG. So that's progress. Smile

comfortmewithapples · 11/06/2012 21:02

Without! NOt with!

CoteDAzur · 11/06/2012 21:13

"placebo is suprisingly enormous in some trials actually. This being the case, why not let people get on and enjoy their favorite non treatment"

No problem whatsoever, as long as they know it's placebo.

The problem arises when they make silly claims about love energy of the universe showing as auras around animals that can be channeled by Reiki masters. That is the part we have to point out is laughably wrong.

Xenia · 11/06/2012 21:18

A huge load of gullible people (often women) get taken in and spend money. I've always thought a good business idea woudl be some kind of potion, probably related to weight loss or my own cult to get the money pouring in.

However if the placebo effect works as long as people are not actively misled by the rubbish supposed science spouted by those peddling stuff which cannot be proven let them do it.

However there can be potential harm. Steve Jobs of Apple said had he had his time over agian he woudl have started treatment against the cancer much earlier. He didn't right away. He tried diet and alternative stuff first. I do think a healthy diet makes huge differences to all kinds of things from diabetes to cancers, mental health to heart disease (and I don't eat processed foods etc etc) sop I am not saying he was wrong to get his diet right but I do think he is a prime example of someone clever who researches, decides to try alternative things first, and perhaps in the end died because of it (as if you wait too late for some cancer treatment you lose the chance to eradicate it).

GhostOfAWasp · 11/06/2012 21:29

If Steve Jobs had started treatment sooner he might not have lasted as long as he did. Bottom line is with pancreatic cancer, you're fucked. If he'd have started chemo earlier he might have felt a whole lot shitter in the time he had left. Only allegorical evidence to support my view I'm afraid but this is probably a slight tangent anyway...

comfortmewithapples · 11/06/2012 21:30

Yes, once again I agree. Smile

therugratref · 11/06/2012 21:58

I work in the NHS, I wish I could get paid 40 or even 25 quid an hour for administering treatments which actually work. May be I should print a nice diploma off the internet and set up as a reiki master instead....

FiftyShadesofViper · 11/06/2012 23:43

Sorry for the delay but I'm intrigued that Cote suggests upthread that patient assessment of whether treatment works is not valid but this is also used for the medicines used in evidence based medicine.

How do you think we assess pain relief? We give the patient a pain scoring questionnaire and accept their assessment.
How about testing antidepressants? We ask the patient how they are feeling.
How is that different to a patient feeling better after reiki or complementary therapy?

Of course there are some things that can be assessed by measurement e.g. blood pressure, heart rate, blood levels, etc but it is now widely accepted in many areas including anxiety, depression, COPD, pain ,etc that patient perception can be equally if not more important than measurements.

I must repeat here I have no axe to grind, I am not a reiki practitioner but I see no need to disrespect the rights of others to make their own choices.

LeBFG · 12/06/2012 07:20

Cote: No problem whatsoever, as long as they know it's placebo.

That's the point, though. The placebo only works if you believe it's the real deal!!!

Why do reiki healer have to mention the healing bit though? I would really have no problem with it if they just kept to 'reiki massage' or something like that.

CoteDAzur · 12/06/2012 07:20

Are you sure that you work in healthcare? As a professional, I mean.

What I meant was obviously that one person's assessment (="anecdote") doesn't mean a treatment works, and that you need a statistically significant number of people's assessments along with those of another ("control") group on placebo.

In such studies, Reiki and homeopathy have always failed to prove that they are more effective than placebo - another thing you should know if you are truly a health care professional.

Xenia · 12/06/2012 07:31

Most of these things are not proven but I am not against trying and testing them. Doctors know how much there is left to be found out.

(Steve Jobs himself said had he had wished he had tried conventional treatment sooner apparently, but I want to live in a country where people can make their own informed choices about their health. We all know Reiki and homeopathy etc are mostly a load of rubbish except the placebo effect. If they could be proven to work studies would be done to prove it. However as long as they do not suggest they can do what they can't then I would let them continue. It is very important though that untrue unproven claims are reported to trading standards under 2008 regulations against unfair and inaccurate advertising.

A lot of people take a lot of money to put the bereaved in touch with the dead. There is a lot of exploitatino of the vulnerable around. Lots of damaged people who lead tough lives just need attention, comfort and the like and just to have half an hour a week with someone who isn't nagging you or a toddler kicking your leg helps people. Mind you so might a trip to the park or the library and that woudl not cost a penny.

LeBFG · 12/06/2012 08:12

FiftyShadesofViper - this opinion is one I once held. I now very much regret it as the result of this lax attitude has led to the construction of something like 5 woo-hospitals in the UK - tax payers money constructing these things and filling them with salaried 'specialists', imbuing woo-treatments some sort of kudos.

IMO it also promotes the idea that 'something can be done' inspite of the best medical knowlegde

Personal anecdote (MNers love these so much): friend is unable to walk after falling off roof, has spent two years telling everyone how he'll be back 100% in a year's time. Now clear he never will. Solution: go to local 'healer'. This will keep his hopes up even longer, delaying the mourning process and holding back the work required to fix his house for a wheelchair-bound person to live in.

worldgonecrazy · 12/06/2012 08:25

My question was about people saying it is not to be used on its own but should be used as "complementary" to another treatment (which works, presumably). I'm asking why it should only be used to complement another treatment if it actually works?

The answer, obviously, is that it doesn't work. And that is why you are only told to use it as complement to a real treatment. Like homeopathy or prayer - doctors don't mind you doing them as long as you don't stop your real treatment.

I think there is another reason that alternative/complementary practices can be complementary to more medical interventions. An example of this is aromatherapy massage. When I had to have a back operation I had several aromatherapy massages beforehand, building an association of the smell of the massage oil with relaxation and positive thoughts. Science already has shown that the power of smell is very strong in affecting how we think and feel. During my recovery I used the associated smell to help me relax and promote healing thoughts. The doctors told me I would need 6 weeks off work, I was back at work within 2 weeks. Using a mix of complementary and "real" medicine I was also managing to work full-time right up until the operation for something that many people have to stop work over. Incidentally it was also a 'quack' osteopath who first told me that I needed an MRI scan as he believed the GP and physiotherapist had both been misdiagnosing me. Luckily my GP accepted his comments and an MRI scan showed that I had some major problems going on. Without the osteopath and the aromatherapist I would have been off work longer, costing the taxpayer money. My recovery was also a lot quicker than it would otherwise have been and my mobility both before and after the operation were commented on positively by the medical professionals I was in contact with - for instance I was up and out of bed one day post-op, whereas other patients take 3-4 days to get out of bed. It may have just been 'positive thought' involved, but for £300 total outlay, several thousands were saved by the NHS and my employer.

I feel this story illustrates how things can be positive when an holistic approach is taken to the patient. Unfortunately the NHS doesn't have the money to offer this kind of support, and there are a lot of charlatans out there offering complementary medicine with no training whatsoever, so I know I was lucky to find the right help when I needed it.

Sorry, this is nothing about reiki as I would never use that as a method of healing as I find it disturbing as a concept and have been put off it by the Reiki Masters I have come across. But I don't dismiss all complementary medicines out of hand just because I don't like one particular example.

The only complementary medicine that requires proper training is that for the National Institute of Medical Herbalists who study for several years and are aware of contraindications with more conventional medicines. My mother used one of these for support when she was going through chemotherapy and it helped alleviate some of the nastier side effects of chemo, such as nausea, mouth ulcers and recurrent thrush. Again, another example of an holistic approach helping support a patient through the nastier effects of modern medicine.

entropygirl · 12/06/2012 09:55

Well this has made me wonder exactly what my drive to explain scientific method is.

so lets start with:

  1. Economic efficiency. The taxpayer has put good money into clinical trials designed to determine how best to make people well. To ignore the results is a terrible waste of that money.
  1. Prevention of abuse of quantum mechanics. It is an innocent theory grounded in solid maths. Perverting it to your own selfish ends is just morally wrong.
  1. The old 'someone somewhere is not getting the treatment they need because a Reiki Master, Nutritionist, homeopathist is lying to them' chestnut.
  1. Jealousy. I would love to live in a world with fairies and crystals and the healing power of thought and psychics and believing you can communicate with the dead. But I can't because I meet every claim of theory with the statement "show me the evidence". So frankly I think the rest of you should wake up and try living in the real world too.
  1. Social justice. If everyone met every claim with "show me the evidence" then nobody would ever believe anything written in the Daily Mail. There would be no racism, sexism etc. Gay sex is a sin? Show me the evidence. Albanians are thieves? Show me the evidence. Promoting abstinence is a good way to reduce teenage pregnancies? Show me the evidence. I think you probably get the message....
seeker · 12/06/2012 10:24

I have long planned to have "I Stand Up for the Enlightenment" t shirts printed. Would you like one?

With a choice of either "Correlation is not Causation" or "The Plural of Anecdote is Not Data" on the back.

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