What would convince you?

[TheKeyAuthor]

1 Would he have to appear on Oprah or the like? Which means he has to be a celeb first. How would he become a celeb?
2 Would he have to do tricks like change water into wine? Which means the likes of David Copperfield, Siegfried and Roy etc. are candidates?
3 Would you believe a "miracle" on TV anyway?
4 Are we too sceptical and information overloaded to believe anything any more?
5 Would anything possibly convince anyone in the 21st century anyhow?

Dark Ages were the period when Christianity hampered independent, free, scientific thought among Christians.

That time was hunky dory for Muslims, as you say, but it is now that Islam is hampering independent, free, scientific thought among Muslims.

Christians broke free from religious oppression with Enlightenment. Muslims will have their own Enlightenment, too.

I only hope it won't be as bloody.

Reading Ayn Rand and extrapolating her works into the inescapable end result of an atheist/capitalist world is like reading the Qu'ran and saying that it inevitably leads to a state such as Saudi Arabia.

But you're right in saying that atheism by itself entails no moral position. Atheists in general get their moral position from other sources but, ultimately, from their own reasoning. I started from "treat others as you would want to be treated" and worked my way up from there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "restraint of evil", though. Could you elaborate?

Of course atheism doesn't have any inbuilt 'moral compass': atheism is neither a religion nor a belief system, philosophy or anything of the sort. It is simply a position on a single issue - the existence of deities. If people were classified in terms of their favourite drinks, atheism would basically be teatotalism as opposed to Scotchism or Mojitoism.

As such, atheists are obviously going to disagree with one another over what constitutes ethical behaviour etc. Like everyone else we are of course influenced by our backgrounds, experiences, etc, but as Snorbs rightly writes, we essentially take the position that one can arrive at a moral position on the basis of one's own reason (and capability of empathy and compassion).

More interestingly, perhaps, so do religious believers: Consider this interesting study which seems to suggest that, rather than following a pre-defined moral framework defined by their religion, many believers seem arrive at their own positions - and then go on to assume that this is in line with what their god thinks too.

What atheists don't have is a fixed set of rules about how to act and live their lives.

Of course we have morals Just none dictated to us.

Ok, I'll bite - what defines a "true religion"?

sciencelover - I wasn't replying to you but writing in response to the last couple of posts on this subject.

I'm not sure what you mean by "morals are helped by religion"

Morals are not living beings that can be helped. So you are trying to say that religion helps people be moral.

Did I really need to be told by a 2000 year institution not to kill people and be kind to my neighbour?

Did you?

"To do good, not kill, not steal, not commit adultery, not covet, etc. Belief that you are accountable to a higher power"

I honestly don't think that any of us need to be scared with hell & damnation to be good, not to steal, etc.

Maybe there was a time when this sort of thing was necessary to keep the masses in line, but not anymore.

Snorbs, one of my favourite Bible verses defines 'true religion' thus:

'Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained / untainted /unpolluted by the world.' (James 1:27)

That is a pretty much unattainable goal unless you're prepared to live the life of a Buddhist monk. It also implies that only monotheistic, patriarchal religions are "true" which discounts even the Buddhists of course.

I think it's good to have high aspirations, even if we don't live up to them all / much of the time. And yes, of course a NT Bible verse is going to reflect monotheistic belief. The patriarchal 'father' language is another issue...

So a "true religion" is one that holds us to impossibly high standards? Hmm.

Why is that a bad thing? (genuine question here). I guess if it sets everyone up to fail, that's one thing. But if it raises the aspiration of what it means to be human, that's another.

I'm no psychologist but I'm pretty sure that if I inculcated my children with a firm belief that no matter how hard they try they'll never be good enough to please me then I suspect that would leave them with some fairly major issues.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. That's no way to raise children. But don't foget the whole basis for Christian faith (at least in Protestant churches) is that we are saved by God's grace, not by being 'good enough.' There's another thread on here atm about this very thing - we do good because we love, not because we have a scary great big God threatening to damn us if we don't. 'The one who has been forgiven much, loves much.' So that brings huge freedom.

"we are saved by God's grace, not by being 'good enough.'"

So you know that you will fail, whatever you do, but you are grateful that God will save you in the end?

"we do good because we love, not because we have a scary great big God threatening to damn us if we don't."

I do good because I am a decent person. I don't necessarily love those I help, especially the strangers.

"'The one who has been forgiven much, loves much.' So that brings huge freedom."

I read that several times and still have no idea what it means.

When my DC are forgiven much, they misbehave much.

OK, so we have progressed to me telling my children "You'll never be good enough for me. Ever. Fundamentally you're irretrievably flawed. But if you truly believe that I'm the best thing ever then I'll let you off, even though you really don't deserve it. Just never forget the huge favour I'm doing you."

And that's "huge freedom", is it?

Okay, so....to take your points in order.....

1. It's not about God saving 'in the end', it's about God saving me daily in a million little ways.

1. Good for you for being decent and doing good. Maybe that's a distinctively Christian / religious thing - that we are called upon to love the stranger, not just 'do good'? Generous hospitality to strangers was v. impt in the early Church and is still so in many Christian traditions / parts of the world today. Something about the family of God there....

1. Love comes from knowing that you're accepted as you are. Knowing you're accepted as you are comes from knowing that your shortcomings / sins have been forgiven already. So there is a link between religious love and forgiveness.

1. I'm sure they do! Although my dd, who is 9, comes and sidles up to me when she's been difficult and says 'Sorry Mummy', we have a huge hug and say 'that's okay', we go over what happened, why she reacted like that etc, how to avoid it in future, she says 'I love you, mum' and then peace descends. For a while, anyway....

Maybe we have a different definition of "love".

I'm not sure how you can love all strangers, the vast majority of whom you have never met.

Er, no, Snorbs, that is very distorted. So, to try again...

Dd comes sidling up to me (as in above point 4.) 'I'm sorry, Mum' she says. 'That's okay' I say, as we have a huge hug. 'I didn't mean to be rude,' she says. 'Iknow, I reply. 'Why do you think you spoke to me like that?'

'Well,' dd replies, 'I just get so angry when blah blah blah...[hence long conversation about what went wrong with dd's school friends, how to hadle difficult situations at school etc etc]

After a while, we say 'I love you', more hugs, then peace.

It's not that different with God IME, in that forgiveness is always there, and the process of confession involves bringing to God everything that is not right in us, and bringing God's love and wisdom to it, so that you can return to life with a new perspective. Nothing to do with being 'good enough' - that's an utterly alien way of looking at it.

Yes Cote, I'm sure we do have a different definition of love! That's a huge difference.

"Love comes from knowing that you're accepted as you are."

That would be relief. Maybe.

Love comes from getting to know and appreciate someone. It comes from intimacy. I don't know how you can claim to love complete strangers, except in a religious sense of the word that I am not familiar with.

"Knowing you're accepted as you are comes from knowing that your shortcomings / sins have been forgiven already. So there is a link between religious love and forgiveness."

Why bother calling something a sin if it's all immediately (already?) forgiven? And why are you so sure it's a sign of love? It sounds like a manipulative set-up to me. As in, I created all of you, here is a list of sins but I forgave you already. See how much I love you?