What would convince you?

[TheKeyAuthor]

1 Would he have to appear on Oprah or the like? Which means he has to be a celeb first. How would he become a celeb?
2 Would he have to do tricks like change water into wine? Which means the likes of David Copperfield, Siegfried and Roy etc. are candidates?
3 Would you believe a "miracle" on TV anyway?
4 Are we too sceptical and information overloaded to believe anything any more?
5 Would anything possibly convince anyone in the 21st century anyhow?

I was brought up as a Catholic. Then one day I started thinking about what would happen if a Jesus-type person came along today. If someone performed miracles similar to the ones Jesus performed and preached to people etc. I realised that I wouldn't believe that this person were the Son/Daughter of God, even if I saw him or her with my own eyes, or a trusted friend/family member saw them. I'm afraid that's when I stopped believing that Jesus was actually the Son of God. If I wouldn't believe the same thing if it happened today, how can I believe that it happened thousands of years ago from the words of writers who may not ever have seen it themselves?!

Interestingly, I think my Catholic family members would also not believe that the person were Jesus and would instead think it blasphemy etc. so I find that a bit strange!

I'm not religious but not an atheist. I have a belief that there is something beyond what we can understand, and what we may ever be able to understand, but I don't think anything could ever prove to me that there was a God like in the bible or that someone was descended from God. There are so many amazing, inspiring humans who I think have done much more than Jesus supposedly did and who I feel are better deserving of my gratitude and admiration.

And the thing is, even "miracles" could be explained by someone being an alien with superpowers, or time travel, or... All sorts of things really.

Not necessarily. Earlier I mentioned the possibility of god changing all the words in all the religious texts simultaneously so they all provided the same story about what god expects from us. An omnipotent god could do such a thing and do it perfectly. Not a single book missed, not a single character mis-transcribed, every translation perfect and unambiguous, everything - be they printed, engraved, electronic or handwritten - changed in an instant.

But while aliens may well exist, "superpowers" don't. Or, at least, click-your-fingers-and-it's-done magic doesn't exist. If an alien were to want to change all the religious books in the world simultaneously then that alien would have to introduce some agent to actually do the work of erasing the old ink and writing in the new. And whatever that agent of change is - trillions of microscopic robots, say - it's incredibly unlikely that they would be 100% accurate or 100% reliable. Some Bibles or Qu'rans or Sri Guru Granth Sahibs or whatever will be missed. Or they'll do nearly all the print ones but completely miss the ones in braille or similar. Or they'll understand and be able to translate most languages but simply didn't recognise the Bible that's being translated into Klingon.

In essence, therefore, a big miracle on a global scale that is executed perfectly has to be divine in origin. And if god does anything, surely he would do it perfectly. Real life - even if it were in the form of an incredibly powerful alien - just isn't that neat and tidy.

But while aliens may well exist, "superpowers" don't. Or, at least, click-your-fingers-and-it's-done magic doesn't exist.

You see, to me, superpowers or click-fingers-magic is just as likely as God.

It's not true to say that a global "miracle" has to be divine. Think of The Matrix for example (stupid example but it was on TV the other day!) - the "agents" in that film can change the world any way they want, because the world is just a computer program. To me, that's just as likely as that God exists.

I posit that a big, global, perfect miracle in our real world has to be divine in origin.

Any imperfections in miracles discount them from being caused by an omnipotent god. So as magical superpowers don't exist (outside of religion, anyway) then we can critically judge a putative big, global miracle on the basis of either:
a) if it's perfect, it's divine, therefore it's a real miracle, or
b) if it's imperfect, it's not divine and so it's not miraculous.

We can discount the possibility of c) it's perfect, but it was done by magical aliens. Because magic doesn't exist (outside of religion, anyway).

So god could make his presence known, unambiguously, by performing a big enough miracle. But he doesn't. It's almost as if he doesn't care if we get to spend eternity in his presence...

To take your example of the Matrix then from the point of view of the inhabitants of the Matrix, the agents were effectively godlike. Or demonic, depending on your point of view. They were able to move in and out of the (computer-generated) "reality" at will, they could change "reality" to suit their purposes and they could choose to ignore physical laws whenever they liked. Of course, the movie itself plays very clumsily heavily on just this concept.

Aliens, superpowers and imaginary friends. Seems harsh but logically possible. A few points in the thread help to explain my point of view:
1 And Jesus was certainly willing to employ such miracles to demonstrate god's love.
2 So if an omnipotent god could write on the moon, so could Jesus...What a sight that would be to behold!
1 and 2 are getting at the heart of the matter: improbable events. Just how improbable would an event or a series of events have to be to convince (or challenge) you that they could only have occurred through divine intervention? The events I have in mind are not of the walk on water (miracles) type, but more the lightening strikes (rare but do occur) type. In other words, how rare would a series of events have to be before you start to think that the laws of probability just don't stack up?

3 And if Jesus then followed that up by asking god to re-write all the world's religious texts into one clear, coherent and unambiguous statement of what is expected of us from our creator, how much better would life be for everyone.
Well, I can certainly think of such a statement: "Defend the children of the poor and punish the wrongdoer." That message has definitely been forgotten. Maybe we simply need a reminder?

Snorbs I don't understand your assertion that magic doesn't exist?

I don't think God exists. You don't think magic exists. Either of us could be wrong.

"Human nature tells people to believe sources that agree with their viewpoint, and disregard those that do not."

The scientific viewpoint, to which the vast majority of us sceptics subscribe, is to change said viewpoint when new evidence comes to light.

Personally, I would be easily convinced if substantial evidence of intelligent manipulation in our DNA is found, for example. Something that looks out of place and engineered. By definition, I can't imagine what it would be before it is discovered

Or, if it were discovered that people appeared on earth only several thousand years ago, fully formed as Homo Sapiens (I'm not holding my breath for this one). Or some other fantastic claim swallowed hook, line, and sinker by religious folks.

It all boils down to: We Need Proof To Believe These And Other Claims.

Not an unreasonable position to take one's stand, I would think.

Minipie magic does not exist. Slight of hand, illusion etc. have been evident and practised for millennia but magic doses not exist.

In the words of Arthur C Clarke, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

So if aliens or people from our future came to say "hi" tomorrow, they would perform "magic", there is no doubt about it.

You don't believe magic exists. You can't say definitively that it doesn't, any more than I can say definitively that God doesn't exist. There are many people out there who believe in magic (and fairies, and ghosts, and ESP, and reincarnation, and all sorts of other things). Just as there are many who believe in God.

If someone turned up tomorrow who was able to walk on water (and could demonstrate no trickery involved), that could be magic or it could be God. I think magic is just as likely as God.

Magic, in a click-your-fingers-and-it's-done style, would be repeatable and hence testable. Get Hermione Granger in a lab, get her to do a Lumos spell, and investigate the hell out of it. Where's the energy coming from? What's the spectrum of the light? How long can the light stay on? How bright can it get? Is the light coherent? Polarised?

Sadly, pretty much every time some magic-like phenomenon has actually been tested in a lab - dowsing, ESP, spoon-bending etc - it's turned out to be a sham. I say "pretty much every time" because there were some scientists who are taken in by conjurors (eg Uri Gellar) and sometimes it takes another conjuror (eg, James Randi) to point out how the trick is done.

Click-your-fingers magic would require a staggeringly large amount of physics to be rewritten. If it came to it then that is what would happen, but there would have to be a good amount of evidence to refute the mountains of evidence already collected that indicates physics works the way we think it does.

There have always been plenty of stupid people willing to believe in gods and ghosts and other bullshit. Luckily there have always been just enough intelligent people around to keep humanity progressing along, getting rid of the cults one or two at a time, showing how the tricks are done and all that.

OP: Are you about to offer us your own particular conjuring trick for your own imaginary friend? If so, you might find it more profitable to go show it to James Randi, who will give you a million quid if you can prove your 'magic' is real.

nothing would convince me unless something happened to my ability to apply logical thought and common sense.

Why would a higher power want to remain somewhat anonymous? What's the net benefit for either the higher power or us?

OP has a cause he? is pushing for, but I believe it is completely independent of religion.
Both right and wrong. My cause (or interest) is dominated by religion. At least that is my conclusion and why I started the topic. I was curious to know the factors considered in religious belief (or the lack of it.) From the posts, miracles and magic have dominated.

I brought in frequent rare events of an earthly nature as a factor to consider, but nobody picked up on that at all. It seems we are tuned in to a big religious bang (or not) event. Does anybody give weight to something a bit more down to earth?

OH come on OP, what are you trying to flog? Your own imaginary friend? A good book of conjuring tricks? If it's enchanted buckets or something, try Ebay, there are plenty of gullible types out there who will actually give you real money for all sorts of woo and bollocks.

So what kind of events do you mean? Can you give an example? I'm genuinely interested in what you're saying but I get the feeling you're driving towards something that is so far opaque.

Essentially, I think events where there is a rational explanation make poor evidence for miracles. Rainbows, for instance. Sure, maybe they are created by god but I think there is sufficient evidence that all that is needed is light refracting through droplets of water to cause the effect.

So miracles for which there is simply no rational explanation would most definitely intrigue me. But I must admit that I'd only accept "God must've done it" as an explanation if all other possibilities had been exhausted.

"Frequent rare events" is, of course, an oxymoron. Do you mean "Frequent unlikely events"? If so that could simply be down to chance. Toss a coin a million times and you're bound to notice all kinds of peculiar sequences that are statistically insignificant (eg, getting heads ten times in a row out of a million throws is meaningless) but trigger our human tendency to spot patterns and, possibly erroneously, ascribe significance to them.

Or maybe what we thought was an unlikely event is much more likely than previously supposed. Rogue waves, for instance.

Could you give me an example of something that you have experienced that you regard as divinely miraculous?

What a strange thread. I am a believer (a Christian) and my being convinced has nothing to do with miracles (in the sense that it'd affect my faith either way if I witnessed a miracle), or magic. There have been lots if long threads on faith / atheism on MN (can't like from here, sorry). If you're researching the topic, you'd probably do well to read one - just look for the really long threads in this topic!

crescent moon السلام عليكم

Is it not leading me in to sin by forcing me to read the holy Qu'ran without having completed my Wudu??

I was just pulling your leg as there is nothing wrong with translations or small quotations when it comes to Wudu. :)