What would convince you?

[TheKeyAuthor]

1 Would he have to appear on Oprah or the like? Which means he has to be a celeb first. How would he become a celeb?
2 Would he have to do tricks like change water into wine? Which means the likes of David Copperfield, Siegfried and Roy etc. are candidates?
3 Would you believe a "miracle" on TV anyway?
4 Are we too sceptical and information overloaded to believe anything any more?
5 Would anything possibly convince anyone in the 21st century anyhow?

No, actually, atheist says "Your God hypothesis sounds like bull and I don't believe any of it".

It would be stupid to actually say "I know for a fact that there is no God".

No you don't. Why on earth would anyone need a God hypothesis to do any science?

Did you now understand what atheist means? Can I trust you to remember it next time and not say "Atheists say there is no God"?

"the only time you can talk of proof is in mathematics. for every other field, including science, you talk of evidence. "

Absolutely. And so far all the evidence points to there being no god.

Thanks for answering my question about restraint of evil.

Now I understand what you were talking about, I 100% agree. Atheism by and of itself offers no moral restraint against, say, murder. Us poor atheists will have to make do with personal morality and the law to restrain us.

Are you suggesting that if you didn't have your religion to tell you that murder was wrong you wouldn't be able to work it out for yourself?

Sciencelover, I think you're being a tad disingenuous on the slavery thing. The Talmud, the Bible and the Qu'ran offer no prohibition of slavery at all. Quite the opposite in fact - they're all for it.

It is notable that the Ten Commandments says nothing about rape, violence against people (provided you manage not to kill the person you're beating the crap out of) or mistreatment of animals, or anything analogous to Jesus's purported "love thy neighbour". But it does use up half of the commandments going on about how touchy god is. Talk about a wasted opportunity.

But to answer your question

1. sex outside of marriage is no big deal provided it's between consenting adults,

2. I don't personally like pornography but I'm not sure that my personal dislike should mean that it should be banned for other people,

3. In general honesty is a good thing but not 100% always. Treat others as you would expect to be treated and all that.

4. Unkindness is tricky as it can often depend on ones point of view. Treat others etc.

5. I'm against slavery

6. Abortion is acceptable but not ideal. Stem cell research is fine provided there are strong ethical constraints over how the cells are harvested etc.

7. Homosexual acts between consenting adults is none of my business.

crescentmoon, with respect, those verses you quote really don't show Islam in a particularly good light regarding slavery. Not a single one of them says "Slavery's wrong, don't do it". They merely show that freeing a slave is effectively equivalent to paying a fine - it's not about what's good for the slave, it's about the slave-owner having to pay a price for his/her transgression. It confirms that slaves are seen as property, not people.

As far as I can work out, the bit about slaves seeking a writing is about a slave buying him/herself off of the slave-owner. That's not exactly altruism is it?

as for christianity, the campaign against slavery in the UK was actually won by Christians based on their belief that it was wrong in the bible.

Yet the vast majority of slave-owners in the UK were, um, Christians who based their belief that it was ok on the Bible. If you have a book as vague and contradictory as the Bible to pick and choose from you can find a passage that will support pretty much any moral position.

In America, similarly, the vast majority of slave owners were Christian. The anti-slavery movement was spear-headed by Thomas Jefferson (who was a Deist who did not regard Jesus as divine) and one of the most influential anti-slavery texts, "On the Rights of Man", was written by the Deist Thomas Paine.

But you're right in saying that atheism by itself offers no restraint against slavery. Unlike the Talmud, the Bible and the Qu'ran, though, atheism offers no defence or justification for it either.

But then atheism isn't a religion. It's not there to tell you how to live your life. We're all grown-ups. We can work it out for ourselves. If you need a book to tell you that treating human beings like property is wrong then you need your head examined.

The last slave raid in Britain was carried out in the 1800s by Muslim slave traders who raided some villages in Cornwall and took people to be slaves.

Slavery is a very good example to use because it highlights personal and non-religious based morals being superior to the guidance given in any of the main Judeo-Christeo-Islamic texts, none of which outrightly ban slavery or say it is wrong.

To answer scienceloverss questions:

Sex outside of marriage - if all parties are consenting there are no moral issues. Of course, if Aphrodite had kept her position as one of the popular deities, it would be a religious obligation
Pornography - I disagree with pornography which relies on abusing other vulnerable people, but as a concept I have no problem with it.
Dishonesty, in general - do you mean the white lies that are social oil or bigger dishonesty? I am a very honest person, I don't need a God to tell me to be so.
Unkindness - I try and treat others as I wish to be treated but sometimes I fail and am unkind. I try to make amends for it to the person I have been unkind to. I believe very strongly that if we do wrong by other people, the people we have to make it up to are the people we've wronged. As an ex-Catholic I was told, during confession, that reciting 2 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Marys would do instead of making reparation - I find that concept very strange indeed.
Abortion - whilst I would rather women didn't get into the position of having an abortion, those that do need them should be supported. I couldn't do it myself but try and have sympathy with those who have found it necessary.

I have donated embryos to stem cell research, and also allowed the 'spares' to be used for training and research in the IVF clinic. I would rather the 'potential life' did something useful and was of help to my fellow humans, than just be thrown away. I actually think it immoral not to use spare embryos for research and training. My donated embryos may have helped contribute to other humans having the joy of a succesful IVF treatment or towards the amazing treatments that are being developed through stem cell research - I can think of no greater use for them if they are not going to be used for pregnancy.

Homosexual acts - I've never been able to get my head around homophobia. It is beyond my comprehension and something I find horrible. How can people hate other people just because they choose to love someone from their own gender? Such hatred is something I actually find quite reprehensible and incomprehensible.

If you need a book to tell you that treating human beings like property is wrong then you need your head examined.

THIS WITH BELLS ON!

Mea culpa - the last slave raids were in the 17th Century.

"the only time you can talk of proof is in mathematics. for every other field, including science, you talk of evidence"

Err, no. You can prove something not only with mathematics, but also with logic - another test theology fails at.

In science, as well, you can easily prove something exists - I can't tell if you ever did any science in a lab at school (probably not) but you get a substance, do some tests on it, and prove it is xx and not yy. Not just "evidence" it.

Or the super-accurate and super-speeding clocks sent circling the Earth, whose differences later proved what Einstein said re time slowing down when you go faster.

Not "evidenced", but "proved".

sciencelover - re "A few other things commonly held as immoral by those who believe in God: Slavery (very commonly opposed in modern times, but wasn't as strongly opposed anciently), Abortion/research on embryonic stem cells, Homosexual acts"

Abortion - A woman's body, her choice.
Homosexuality - Any sexual act between consenting adults is none of my business. Nor is it of yours or your Church's.
Slavery - Crime against humanity.

Why on earth you would think only religious people would be outraged by slavery, I can't fathom.

Iirc, missionaries accompanied colonial excursions to the new lands.

And when these slaves were taken back, their masters were Christians, were they not? And they justified slavery because the slaves were not themselves Christians, did they not? And this is why they didn't want slaves to be converted to Christianity, was it not?

as for the Qur'an, it is a book almost 1500 years old, revealed in the 6th century AD

Forgive me - I thought the Qur'an was supposed to be the verbatim word of god who is allegedly the ultimate source of all morality.

You're making it sound like god wanted slaves to be freed but was too scared to simply say "Slavery's wrong, stop it right now" because it wouldn't have gone down well at the time. Or do god's morals change over time like humanity's do?

"would it be immoral to make those men captured slaves until the war is over, provided they are treated humanely?"

What exactly is humane slavery? Do the masters say 'please' and 'thank you' before and after the slave's day of forced labour?

Was that what Nazi labour camps were about? Making slaves out of captured 'enemies' until the war was over?