Should we have women bishops in the Church of England?

[uwila]

Following on from some comments on the child guru saya nurseries harm small children thread , I thought it was time I raise the subject in its own thread. Mumsnetter Beartime seems to think that it is woman?s role, according to scripture, to be submissive and serve her husband. Now I most certainly consider myself a Christian (Anglican), but I am really struggling to reconcile my commitment to these views as well as my very firm belief that women have a right to be equal to men in this world. And this brings me to the current debate of Anglicans Get Women Bishops Plan

If you are Anglican, do you believe women should be bishops? Do you believe that your primary purpose on this earth is to serve your husband?

Please somebody tell me that I am not alone in thinking these scripture were appropriate in the time in which they were written, but that it is right to think that need not be applied so literally to modern times.

Fennel, I thought the definiton of agnosticism was more of undecided / searching for the truth.

Actually, I think we are basically saying the same thing.

I'm not Anglican but was raised a Catholic and suppose I am vaguely Christian these days. I still go to church but my "belief" is a bit muddled these days.
For years I have felt that the Christian faith has been misogynist & used by a society run by men to keep women in their place (i.e. - at home, not bothering their small brains with men's affairs). Yet, if you look at the New Testament, particularly the Gospels, I feel that Jesus was very much in favour of equality and placed emphasis on the role of women within his belief system. He preached about fairness & an equal society, so from that perspective, I feel that the Christian church should promote equality too & women should be just as able as men to be priests, ministers, bishops etc.

All of these rules about who can do what in the church are man made any way, if jesus had been a womem would men be having this debate about male bishops?

uwila. in that case am definitely not an agnostic.

am not searching. did a lot of searching in the years before leaving christianity behind.

very interesting thread uwila.

it seems to grab the headlines about women clergy.

What doesn't grab the headlines is loving one another which is the central message of a lot of beliefs, (or non-beliefs even!) and implementation of that would genuinely change the world. Individuals can do this, and so can institutions and states.

Yes, I think this is an interesting point about the differences between Christianity and the establishment commonly referred to as "the church".

Surely, the church should conform to christianity and not the other way around. So, this idea of submissive women is then a product of the church, and not Christianity?

Helen38, if Jesus had been a woman, she would probably have been killed (by outraged men, or by childbirth) long before she could impart any messages at all, let alone the very politically dangerous ones that he did. He was lucky to live as long as he did and the power of his messages has survived 2000 years.

I read that he and the early church were quietly bankrolled by wealthy women as well as men.

i think the idea of submissive women has been peddled by patriarchal societies forever, and the church is a product of that, rather than of Christ's teachings, unfortunately.

Can someone define feminism for me so I can compare it with Christianity/religion? I realised I haven't given it any consideration until now either, just grew up with it, and I must examine it too as it must be part of my belief system that I am currently picking apart.

BTW Fennel i am an agnostic in the sense that i sometimes have doubts about the existence of God, but I am a Christian agnostic in the sense that i believe in what Christ taught to be the truth, and i suspect that humanism may owe more to Christ's teachings than we think. Though feel free to disagree!

I think a lot of things about "the church" must make God really mad. Rules have been added and removed over the years, a lot of them by the catholic church many years ago and most of them, to me any way seem to have very little to do with God or true faith. I am not attacking the catholic church so please don't shout at me, I grew up in a catholic family, just not one myself.
I hate it when people label me as "religious" as to me religion is about the rules and regulations, I have a faith. Isn't the rule we are supposed to live by love God love one another? Why does it matter if you are male or female?

ruty putting down one group or other must be a general urge of the human race (and even animals) don't you think? it's some sort of survival instinct and boud to come out in instituitons and organisations too.

probably majorstress.

I have recently met people who say they are not religious, but are spiritual whatever that means. I think organised religion has got a bad name (deservedly) but you still have beliefs whatever label you put on them, and naming a particular religion or belief nowadays stereotypes you in peoples eyes so is not a great feeling to admit anymore.

yes, if you say you are a Christian people automatically think you dislike gay people and judge everyone else. Probably Muslims get a similar thing.

I don't belong to a mainstream Christian church but I'm not convinced that it has got no other content or had no other effect down the centuries than to put down women or anyone else. That all-inclusive "love one another" message (and love god but that wasn't Jesus' origianl material!) has somehow made it through-but IMPLEMENTING it....

The Buddhist philosophy I have been hearing lately has been all about how you can only be happy if you try to cherish all others, not just yourself (apart from taking care of your health etc of course).

muslims get terrible stereotyping, and it's really unfair IMO

for me (and there are many versions of feminism of course) i would say feminism is the belief that one sex is not naturally or innately superior to or in charge of or more important than the other one. also for me this is part of a wider belief about race, ethnicity, class, sexual orientation, etc. it's a resistance to the systematic subjugation of any one group of people by another.

and for me feminism is a political belief in that such beliefs about equality should be reflected in law, society, workplaces, and in the home.

obviously many christians believe the above. but in christianity it is still acceptable to have debates such as the one over women bishops. having moved into a world (feminist atheism) where noone has to still keep having these antidiluvian debates about the right to be equal, i have absolutely no interest in trying to go back to reconciling these feminist beliefs with many opposing views in most organised religions. i feel such things should be a pre-requiste and accepted, so for instance i feel the position of the acceptance of gays and lesbians, or women, should not be up for debate. it should be a starting point for debate. this is why for me christianity and feminism are ultimately incompatible. becaues in feminism the pre-requisite, the founding factor, is the christian belief in god and jesus. and if you're lucky you can reconcile that with a pro-feminist, pro-gay, pro-black belief. but the christianity is assumed to be the founding factor. for me, i realised eventually that my beliefs in the status of not just women but also these other groups which have been systematically oppressed by many branches of the church, and still are in many parts of the church and the world, were more important to me than my (waning fast) christian affiliations.

long sentences there....

so what is feminism anyone?

oh sorry posts crossed

sorry, one of those "in feminism"s should, of course , read, "in christianity"

preview, preview....

Well yes majorstress I do realise that there is no way that Jesus could of been a woman born into that time. I guess I was just thinking that people seem to asume that because Jesus was a man then only men can be in positions of leadership which to me doesn't make sense, I believe that everyone has lots to offer and a love of God not what gender you are is what should matter.

But what would I know? I am hardly the feminist role model, full time mum of 2 (nearly 3) Husband the breadwinner not because I feel it is my duty as a woman but a) because he earns shed loads more than i ever could and b) because I like being with my children. In some peoples eyes this could make me a submissive wife, my husband would disagree

but are we throwing out the baby with the bathwater? loving and caring about others even if they are not your own family or people, is the central novel message of Christianity, not oppression-that was just a continuation of what the world was already like-this was a new idea, that really could change that bad part of the world. If we throw it away because of administrative mistakes, wouldn't that be compounding the errors of the past.

totally agree with your summary of feminism fennel. but still find it hard to understand why your [correct] perceptions of the church make you believe Christianity is at fault. I think the church is just an expression of the society we've created, not an expression of Christ.
BTW major stress, there is this great idea that the three kings came to find Christ because they believed he was the next dalai lama, and when he came of age he was taken to the East to train in Buddhism, that would fit with a period of time his life is unaccounted for, and Christianity is a marriage of Judaism and Buddhism I think. Not sure if i believe it, but great idea!