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Original poster

Should we have women bishops in the Church of England?

142 replies

uwila · 15/02/2006 09:09

Following on from some comments on the child guru saya nurseries harm small children thread , I thought it was time I raise the subject in its own thread. Mumsnetter Beartime seems to think that it is woman?s role, according to scripture, to be submissive and serve her husband. Now I most certainly consider myself a Christian (Anglican), but I am really struggling to reconcile my commitment to these views as well as my very firm belief that women have a right to be equal to men in this world. And this brings me to the current debate of Anglicans Get Women Bishops Plan

If you are Anglican, do you believe women should be bishops? Do you believe that your primary purpose on this earth is to serve your husband?

Please somebody tell me that I am not alone in thinking these scripture were appropriate in the time in which they were written, but that it is right to think that need not be applied so literally to modern times.

OP posts:
katzg · 15/02/2006 09:11

Women Bishops would be great!

Tommy · 15/02/2006 09:16

I've never really understood why this is such an issue for the CofE. Surely, if women priests are OK, then the natural next step would be women bishops?
(I'm not an Anglican BTW - I'm RC so we have hundreds of years catching up to do yet! )

Tommy · 15/02/2006 09:17

also don't believe my primary purpose is to serve my husband - although I think he does sometimes

glitterfairy · 15/02/2006 09:19

Yes a simple but effective answer!

fennel · 15/02/2006 09:29

i wrote an essay on that topic for oxbridge entrance exam. at the time i though what you are trying to think Uwila.

since then changed my mind and think no, feminism and christianity are basically incompatible. even if they weren't, totally, incompatible for me back in the days (a long time ago now) when i was an evangelical christia and a feminist, i was always surrounded by people who did believe in women's subjugation. in the end they convinced me the two didn't go together.

Original poster
uwila · 15/02/2006 09:36

Oh Fennel, why are they incompatible?

OP posts:
ruty · 15/02/2006 09:43

What???? [takes a deep breath, promises to herself not to get into a raging argument.] Feminisism and Christianity are NOT incompatible in the slightest. How about the Hilda, Abbess of Whitby, 7 century, who founded the Abby there and ruled with an authority equal to a Bishops over a mixed gender Abbey? Or ofcourse Hildegard Bingen, 11 century, who did the same, and had authority over the Bishop in matters of principle?Or Julian of Norwich, one of the greatest christian mystic writers of all time? God is both make and female, note, the Holy Spirit is feminine in both Hebrew and Greek. Christ had female disciples, one a former prostitute.
Feminism in the modern church [especially in the Evangelical church] is incompatible yes, but not with christianity. Nope.

Helen38 · 15/02/2006 09:43

Do i think my role is to serve my husband...er no! I am a christian, worship at an anglican church so guess that makes me on (not keen on labels just think of myself as christian)
The bible may say wives submit to your husbands, but it does go on to say that husbands should love their wives as they love themselves, as christ loved the church. To feed them and take care of them in every way.
This was written for people living in a very different world to ours, a woman would leave her family to be married and would be completely dependant on her husband to take care of her, no career women in those days! I see it as having been intended as something which worked both ways and we probably are putting modern meanings into things which were appropriate at the time in which they were written.

As for the women bishop question, I feel that so much debate went into the question of if women should be vicars, then surely the decision has been made? if they can be a vicar then they should be able to be bishops too if they shouldn't be bishops then they should not of been allowed to be ordained in the first place.

My word thats long!!! hope i managed to make sense, 38 wks pg and brain not working at it's best

edam · 15/02/2006 09:50

Of course women should be able to become Bishops, the whole idea of discrimination is abhorrent and un-Christian. Imagine such a debate happening today about whether black men should be allowed. Ridiculous. I blame St Paul.

Talking of discrimination, I'm happy to live in a diocese which gave a home to the man who was barred from a Bishopric for being gay, can't remember his name right now but is no. 2 to our Bishop.

fennel · 15/02/2006 09:58

ruty, ok, perhaps feminism is compatible with some versions of christianity such as those more liberal ones you suggest. for me it was incompatible with the modern, and particularly evangelical, church - which i think you agre with.

uwila, the essay (which got me into Oxford, it was a cracking essay) was written 20 years ago now. it was based on an analysis of all the biblical texts which touched on the issue, and the way they'd been translated and interpreted through the ages. I am rather rusty on all that now but am sure some of the others here could make those arguments well.

i suppose i came to the conclusion that even if you COULD make a feminist belief compatible with some versions of Christianity - and clearly some people can, I know various christian feminists, and as i say i once was one - it was a lot of hard work to do so (similarly with the issues with homosexualality and christianity) and in fact my beliefs and ethics and ideology were far closer to the atheist/humanist approach to life than they were to the vast majority of christian views. as i say this was my conclusion and obviously not everyone would conclude the same. for me, leaving christianity and the church meant i was not torn between two opposing belief systems which in the end I couldn't, personally, reconcile.

acnebride · 15/02/2006 09:59

I have such a struggle with this as I simply can't understand the opposing view, and feel I should be able to. To some people it is clearly almost impossible to imagine a woman priest, let alone a woman bishop. I just can't see the problem.

This probably has something to do with a matriarchal family, mother as breadwinner, all girls (state) secondary school, female prime minister for large chunk of my life (OK let's not go there!)- I just don't get it. I'm too Protestant - the minister is there largely for convenience and I do not believe in transubstantiation.

I have read a few things about there having to be one leader for a Christian marriage and I don't get that either. My husband has bipolar disorder. If he led the household on his own, one week we'd buy a house we can't afford, the next week we'd all kill ourselves. I have patches too where leading is simply beyond me. We are a team and our family is a community.

ruty · 15/02/2006 10:02

wee i would say fennel [i went to oxford about 14 years ago] that rather than feminism being compatible with some 'versions' of christianity, that the true Christianity is about the liberation and equality of all human beings, and that is has become corrupted by those who wish to use it to control and suppress, like many other religions. the modern church I believe Christ would feel very depressed by, both in its insularity and its bigotry. Not a personal attack on individual Christians, but one of the institution of the church.

Avalon · 15/02/2006 10:04

Of course we should have women bishops. Find it hard to believe we haven't got even one, yet.

fennel · 15/02/2006 10:06

yes Ruty i can appreciate that view. i think for me because i was familiar with the evangelican (anglican) versions of christianity, which tend to be quite all-or-nothing, that when i left that part of the church and christianity i did try your sort - am not trying to be dismissive here, I can see many positive things in that approach. but for me, personally, once you get to the more personal, liberal side of christianity it more or less merges into humanism - once you are focusing on the social justice, liberation aspects. so for me, it made sense at that point to just move on to atheism and stop quibbling with the details.

fennel · 15/02/2006 10:08

sorry that bold your looks too strong. please unbold it in your reading of previous post!

Original poster
uwila · 15/02/2006 10:09

So, Fennel, you gave up Christianity in favour of feminism? Are you an atheist now?

OP posts:
fennel · 15/02/2006 10:10

uwila. yes definitely. or, if i was in a philosophical debate, i'd say the logical position was agnosticism with a tendency to atheism.

Original poster
uwila · 15/02/2006 10:11

So you still have some glimps of a hope that there is a God, but stronger doubts?

OP posts:
majorstress · 15/02/2006 10:13

do I have to be anglican to have an opinion about this?

Original poster
uwila · 15/02/2006 10:16

No. You are always welcome, Majorstress.

OP posts:
fennel · 15/02/2006 10:17

Uwila, no. am not interested, frankly. am very happy with not believing. i find it far easier to live what i consider a consistent, and ethical life than i did within the church system. it's been a good 15 years since i left it behind and i have definitelybeen happier since then than before. more comfortable with my beliefs.

agnosticism is the belief that you can't know for sure if there is a god. which i find to be a logical approach.

atheism strictly speaking is the belief that there definitely is no god. which is hard to justify in logical philosophical terms.

so i call myself an atheist but i don't mean i can be absolutely sure there is nothing out there. but i tend to think so.

ruty · 15/02/2006 10:17

well fennel Archbishop Michael Ramsay used to call himself a Christian Agnostic. I rather like that, and far from being wishy washy i find it a very frank and honest facing up to the nature of belief.

bottersnike · 15/02/2006 10:21

As a contribution to the "submissive wife" argument, dh wrote in my Valentine's card an excerpt from Proverbs about a wife of noble character, which includes the verses :
" She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard."
Doesn't sound too submissive to me.
Admittedly dh did leave out the bit that says :
" She watches over the affairs of her household and does not eat the bread of idleness."
Possibly a comment on my 30 week pregnancy tendency to lie around a lot, but you get my point!
Personally I am a Christian but don't consider myself Anglican or otherwise. I don't really mind who "leads" in Church, as long as they are full of the joys of Jesus.

majorstress · 15/02/2006 10:25

ruty I really agree with your idea as I read it that Christianity and IMO Islam too for that matter are about liberation for all including women and that they have been subverted by political and other influences.

So of course there should be women everything, Pope too, it is completely daft that there are rules against it.

ruty · 15/02/2006 10:26

agree majorstress.