Anyway, I'm intrigued that a 'proper scientific experiment' could verify whether prayer 'works.' I can tell you that it's worked for me for decades, but I don't suppose that would wash...!
Hi Holo,
I am interested in how you think that prayer has ?worked for you for decades? and what evidence you have for this?
I don?t pray, and I have had good days and bad days. I have the odd beyond-horrendous day when friends have been killed in car crashes or family members have died young from incurable disease. However, I also have the odd great day when really unlikely (nice) things have happened to me, like winning a competition, or getting the job of my dreams.
When things are not going well for me day to day (feeling down or had a bad day at work), I go for a run. This is in many ways a form of meditation just like the act of prayer and more-often than not I feel better afterwards, and therefore more able to deal with my problems. But not because of god, but because the activity relaxes me!
So, what kind of proper scientific experiment would count? Surely logic dictates that one single, properly scientifically verifiable miracle would verify God's existence, if we are saying that miracles are the primary data for God existing. But what kind of miracle? And who'd get to verify it? No-one with a vested interest either way, surely?
Logic does NOT dictate this, because no one will be able to ?verify? any occurrence as a true miracle (i.e. caused directly by god). Clearly if a loud voice came from above and spoke to the world and then a major miracle was done, then that would be sufficient, but from what I understand, that doesn?t seem to be god?s style. At the end of the day, it comes down to defining what a miracle actually is!
- Is winning the lottery a miracle? No, statistically very unlikely, but wholly possible (it happens to thousands of people every week across the world).
- Is the same person winning the lottery twice in 4 months a miracle? No, statistically very very unlikely, but there are thousands of lotteries across the world and it is wholly possible (in fact it has already happened somewhere in the USA).
- Is it a miracle if I am feeling sad and missing a friend and they phone me at the moment I am thinking of them? No, I think about them lots and the vast majority of these occasions they don?t phone, it is just random chance and quite unlikely, but there is no intervention.
- Is someone being cured of a very aggressive form of cancer a miracle? No, again, very unlikely, but it happens.
- Is a great flood a miracle? No, sometimes it rains lots.
- Is a bush catching fire spontaneously a miracle? No, this happens in nature, but is very uncommon.
- Is a bowling ball floating in the air with no forces acting upon it to make it float a miracle? Yes, this violates Newton?s laws and would be a miracle - but this sort of thing does not happen. Even if it did happen it still wouldn?t be verifiable as being caused by god (although I would be more likely to believe in him - albeit think we was strange for performing such an odd miracle!)
You ask what experiment would be required to prove that prayer works, but some experiments have already been done and prove that it doesn?t work (but you don?t accept them). A good experiment will need a large statistical basis (lots of people) comprising a control group (who do nothing), a placebo group (who think something is being done when it isn?t) and a test group (the actual test subjects).
I presume you are reluctant to accept the previous experiments because they do not fit with your understanding of how god actually answers prayers. In order to put together an experiment, you will need to define how prayer actually ?works? and then I can try to work out a good experiment.