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Philosophy/religion

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Why do some people find it hard to believe in God? Part 2

648 replies

notfluffyatall · 31/01/2012 11:11

I don't think we've quite finished yet Grin

OP posts:
BobbinRobin · 31/01/2012 13:48

Grimma - you can Follow the platitudes on Twitter, if you are so inclined Smile

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 13:54

Oh goodness no, if I started with twitter I'd never get any work done!

And the platitidudes chap is right - IIRC somewhere he says he doesn't want them to just chuck a few Humanists into the mix. Thought For the Day should be a thought-provoking piece about something of topical interest by whoever is well-placed to comment on it. As a top-of-my-head example, if 'dying with dignity' is in the news, I'd have someone who ran a hospice rather than a bishop.

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 14:14

Heresiarch: 'vague and contradictory mythology.' Go on, convince me that that's not a load of old cobblers! Wink

Hi Madhair! Hope you're feeling better. Have we met? Maybe! Smile

Right, I need to crack on with some work this afternoon...

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 14:18

Oh, and also - going back to Augustine, as you asked, Notfluffy - Augustine believes that the grace of God is the only means by which we ae able to make truly free choices, so no, he doesn't believe in 'free will' as such - he believes that the sin in us inevitably directs us and we are powerless to stop it doing so.

Bear in mind, obv, that Augustine is not the whole Christian faith, that there were Christians for a good 450 years before him, and there are Christians now who don't believe in 'Original Sin.' Right! On with the work...

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 14:47

Augustine believes that the grace of God is the only means by which we ae able to make truly free choices, so no, he doesn't believe in 'free will' as such - he believes that the sin in us inevitably directs us and we are powerless to stop it doing so.

now what the heck does that mean? Confused
(I'm not sure I really want to know, just commenting that it doesn't make much sense. Probably requires some specific definition of the word 'sin'. And 'free'.)

notfluffyatall · 31/01/2012 14:49

.....and what 'the grace of god is Wink

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GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 14:56

Heresiarch: 'vague and contradictory mythology.' Go on, convince me that that's not a load of old cobblers!

sounds like a challenge Grin

OK, start at the beginning. Genesis 2:4 contradicts the order of the 'days' in Genesis 1.

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 15:02

That's because it's two stories that were written at different times and merged together. Gen. 2 is much older than Gen. 1.

Next? Grin

BTW, I am happy to point you in the direction of books / sources to prove I actually know this stuff, but would you read them?

Grimma, Notreally - happy to define those terms if you are interested in reading my answer.

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 15:19

That's because it's two stories that were written at different times and merged together. Gen. 2 is much older than Gen. 1.

I don't doubt you're right. However, they are still an example of 'contradictory mythology'. (how fundamentalist creationists manage to get past that point in the bible before saying...'oh yes, they're myths' eludes me Grin)

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 15:29

This comes back to the point I've made serveral times. Once again, the Bible is not a science book!

If you expect it to be, you'll end up thinking it's contradictory, and probably wal away at this point thinking there's no good in it.

If you are interested in the development and transmission of traditions, you'll be fine with different strands of tradition, and start to appreciate the way these traditions interact with each other.

What's not to understand? Confused

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 15:29

Ooops, walk away I meant! Blush

exexpat · 31/01/2012 15:44

I read a great letter by HL Mencken today responding (in 1931) to a question about the meaning of life and what role, if any religion played in his life. His answer is very much in line with how I feel about it.

Worth reading the whole of it here: www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/on-meaning-of-life.html

but the bit that had me nodding along most fervently was this:

"The act of worship, as carried on by Christians, seems to me to be debasing rather than ennobling. It involves grovelling before a Being who, if He really exists, deserves to be denounced instead of respected. I see little evidence in this world of the so-called goodness of God. On the contrary, it seems to me that, on the strength of His daily acts, He must be set down a most cruel, stupid and villainous fellow. I can say this with a clear conscience, for He has treated me very well?in fact, with vast politeness. But I can?t help thinking of his barbaric torture of most of the rest of humanity. I simply can?t imagine revering the God of war and politics, theology and cancer."

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 15:53

Obviously the Bible is not a science book. It's a book full of myths and traditions.

What's not to understand is how people then base anything meaningful upon it. People come to all sorts of conflicting (sometimes literally) positions based on their interpretations.

If you think that the statement ' 'vague and contradictory mythology.' is 'a load of old cobblers', I rather think the onus is on you, Holo, to convince the rest of us it ain't so.

madhairday · 31/01/2012 16:09

Oh now notfluffy, you can't expect me to walk away from your comments re vicars having too much time on their hands. Seeing as wot I'm married to one, and all that.

I must also take issue with your contention that 'a man of the cloth can be found for any occasion....etc.' Surely you meant to say a person of the cloth?

Pedant alert

Oh thanks for the flowers btw. It's good to see you too. I am not really better, I have a long term illness and despite having been in hospital very recently I'm currently having another exacerbation, so it's pretty crappy atm. All the better to have some good reading matter ;)

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 16:10

I did that on the last thread!

But okay though, here's the basic outline of what I think:

OT - 4 main strands of tradition. Amazingly high degree of agreement (eg Samuel-Kings uses Psalms, later prophets use earlier ones). There are places at which one book questions another (e.g. Job questions Proverbs, Proverbs questions itself, Ecclesiastes questions everything). Some strands of tradition simply sit aside one another eg Gen 1 - 2, as we've just noted).

What does that tell us? That within this tradition, you're allowed to question. That truth emerges out of a multiplicity of experiences and voices. That God is there is the whole of life, the good and the bad. That belonging to the covenant is the most important thing. That the whole world is God's, and God is God of all the world. And much, much more. So far so good?

NT - 4 gospels that tell the story of the life of Jesus, one of which (Luke) hs a sequel (Acts) which tells the story of the early church - letters written by Paul and others. Revelation is a letter. So far so good? Meaning - richer than I could do justice to here. John 3:16, as you'll know, is often thought of as the gospel in a nutshell:

Thus God loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten son, in order that all who trust in him may not perish, but have eternal life' (my translation from the Greek)

I could say much, much more about the Bible. There is way more meaning in it than a simple, bare set of propositions! (thank God!!!)

notfluffyatall · 31/01/2012 16:17

Thanks exexpat I really enjoyed that Smile

I loved this "When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness. No show, however good, could conceivably be good for ever."

OP posts:
notfluffyatall · 31/01/2012 16:22

Aw madhairday I was being flippant with my vicar joke, you know I was (sort of) teasing Wink

As for the 'person of the cloth', it's rare that you will see a woman (they are vastly outnumbered y'know) but I will concede that one.

I hope we're keeping you amused while you're feeling so crappy, hope you at least feel better soon x

OP posts:
madhairday · 31/01/2012 16:47

Not quite so outnumbered as they used to be, thankfully Grin

Thanks :)

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 17:23

As for the 'person of the cloth', it's rare that you will see a woman
my impression is that there are quite a lot of CofE female vicars (and there's been a smattering of nonconformist ministers for ages) - but you wouldn't know it from listening to the media. It usually is a man they wheel out. But that's the same for all areas - till recently there was some publicity about the invisibility of women, and then suddenly programs like Newsnight were awash with women!. (sorry, digression!)

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 17:26

What does that tell us? That within this tradition, you're allowed to question. That truth emerges out of a multiplicity of experiences and voices. That God is there is the whole of life, the good and the bad. That belonging to the covenant is the most important thing. That the whole world is God's, and God is God of all the world. And much, much more. So far so good?

It may tell you that but it doesn't do anything of the sort for me I'm afraid.

heresiarch · 31/01/2012 18:32

The "amazing" concordances between different parts of the Bible say nothing more than the later writers knew the earlier stories and so made sure that their later additions matched the earlier stuff. Given the provenance - ie, the Old Testament is largely the oral history of the Jews - this is hardly surprising.

But look at all the work you have said you have put into understanding the Bible and its context. How do you know your interpretation of it is right? How do you know that John 3:16 isn't meant to be taken as a literal description of Jesus being the son of God, but a metaphor for him being a mortal man who happened to be such a convincing preacher that his followers believed that he must have been specially chosen by God to lead them?

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 19:20

Grimma, I thought that you were asking how one can find meaning in the Bible without taking it as a science book? That was what I was answering...

Heresiarch, yes of course the OT writers knew their tradition. What's your point there?

And how to understand the words of Jesus - well, I am quite a believer in reading lots of other contemporaneous texts, (or as close as poss) so that it becomes obvious to see what ideas are v common, and what is unique. Or how common ideas are used in unique ways. Reasonable enough?

HolofernesesHead · 31/01/2012 19:24

Ah, this is what you said, Grimma: 'what's not to understand is how people base anything meaningful on it.'

So I gave you an answer! Smile I can read people, and understand theirthinking without agreeing with it...

GrimmaTheNome · 31/01/2012 21:10

Well thanks for trying but it still passeth my understanding Grin

CrunchyFrog · 31/01/2012 21:14

Just marking my place - will be back soon, DS2 has been very poorly so not been paying attention!

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