Why do some people find it hard to believe in God?

[MosEisley]

I believe in God.

However, I am attending an adult confirmation class and we have been asked to consider why some people do not believe in God. DH and I came up with:

• there is no absolute proof of God's existence
• they are rebelling against a strict organised religion that they can't accept as literallly true

If you know someone who doesn't believe in God, why don't they?

Cottonmouth. I am filled with joy and hope.

My left leg was amputated above the knee when I was 12 years old. But now you have offered me incontrovertible evidence that our gracious and loving Lord could actually grow it back for me - just that in all His Ieneffable Wisdom he hasn't seen fit to do so for the last 40 years.

Tell me when and where I need to be. I truly do look forward to casting my prosthesis to the wind. O yes indeedy.

As I said before Rational I think anyone relying on faith and not medicine is bonkers, and that is very sad.

Yes seeker it bothers me that a baby is prayed and prayed for and died. It happened to a friend of mine last year. It is deeply sad and I shouted at God.

I cannot explain it all at all. I am aware there are not corroborated reports. There was a couple in my old church who went for a 20 week scan and were told their baby had a cleft lip and palate and a heart condition. People began to pray. They went back a few weeks later and the baby had no such conditions. They showed us before and after scan pics. I still realise this means nothing. The doctors were flummoxed. It must be recorded somewhere. I think there are not any, or many, because these things are usually explained away - you get the term unexplained sometimes, or a medical miracle - who knows.

I do think it is rare. My friend with the damaged spine was in a wheelchair and is running around. Is she making it up? More times than not though it doesn't happen, as I know myself. I cannot form wonderful theologically correct answers, because there isn't any.

So yes, these things bother me, because I am a thinking person. I continually question, and I continually believe, because my experience of an awesome God carries on regardless.

But yes - it's impossible to quantify these things, and I have no doubt whatsoever some reports are false and some wishful thinking. But I know with all of myself some are true and lasting.

Rational is that baby dead? :(

And I apologise for the abysmal grammar in that post. I am tired. Drinking wine till 1 am is not the best of activities for me. We don't just do miracles on these conferences

I don't believe in God because of the shockingly awful things that happen to good people whilst total rotters come up smelling of roses.

If there is a God, why on earth would you waste any of your short time on earth worshipping the entity responsible for aforementioned crap

So basically, god occasionally heals someone. Usually, if not always, someone suffering from a condition that is either psychological in origin, or which has a pattern of natural remission, or which is not definitely diagnosed in the first place. And he practically never does it anyway, despite thousands of devout followers praying sincerely to him.

And this is a loving, healing god?

Agree that religion is about social control

Yes seeker. It's all I can say. God is a loving and healing God. I know it with everything I am.

But I cannot give you what you really want. You know that. It would all be rather easy really wouldn't it if I could.

I will be back to this tomorrow, not ignoring or bowing out but just want to go and watch some crap with my lovely dh who I haven't seen for 3 days :)

madhairday

Why so rare? Doesn't this highlight the notion then that if your god truly exists and has the power to heal he is a complete c**t when he allows that new baby that the family have longed for to die, or when the mother of four children dies of cancer?

And could a bunch of you not get together and do a massive pray-in for Africa, god apparently doesn't like African babies at all.

I worked with a girl who belonged to one of the born-again churches. She told me a story, which was supposed to somehow convince me of god's goodness, about her mother who had spent the previous 3 months as a missionary in Africa working with famine victims. Allegedly she spent a whole night praying for this particular child who had come in very close to death. It was a miracle, they cried, when the child actually survived, it must have been the prayer.

Two things come into my mind, is there no credit given to the medical treatment the baby was given? I know some babies still die regardless of intervention but I'm pretty sure lots are saved. And, what about the several babies who probably died that day, or during her 3 month visit? She couldn't pray for them all and save a few more? God was only aware of the one? When he 'revealed' himself to that baby he didn't notice the other dying ones?

It didn't fill me with wonder, it made me feel sick.

I don't really pray for things, IYKWIM, but I think of African babies all the time and send them money.

Some of the lyrics from Tim Minchin's Sam's Mum song sum it up nicely for me. To give a bit of background Sam's mum is a middle class white woman who had her cataracts cured by healing from god.

"So for a bit of a change from his usual stunt of being a sexist, racist, murderous cunt, he popped down to Dandenong and just like that, used his powers to heal the cataracts of Sam?s mum ? of Sam?s mum!

Thank you God for fixing the cataracts of Sam?s mum! I didn?t realize that it was such a simple thing. I feel such a dingaling, what ignorant scum!

Now I understand how prayer can work: a particular prayer in a particular church in a particular style with a particular stuff and for particular problems that aren?t particularly tough, and for particular people, preferably white, for particular senses, preferably sight ? a particular prayer in a particular spot, to a particular version of a particular god.

And if you get that right, He just might take a break from giving babies malaria and pop down to your local area to fix the cataracts of your mum!

Hallelujah!"

Actually Rational I tend to agree with you about such stories. It just doesn't make sense, and such stories don't really honour God, just pick her out as being unfair.

You know, I don't have the answers. I really don't. I struggle with it all on a daily basis. But I do believe God is good. Getting into arguments about how many are truly healed is something of a red herring, it goes nowhere and will be circular in nature for a good long time yet. But despite all you are saying, despite me grasping that all totally, I believe God is good. I believe God loves and cries over those dying babies. I don't understand. I really don't. But my experience is again and again of a loving God.

I can only go back to Jesus, that he got in the mess with us all, and suffered too. I think there is a whole lot of brokenness in this world and that there is a hope that can overcome it.

But it doesn't make everything allright.

Now I really am off to eat and watch crap. :)

"I don't really pray for things, IYKWIM, but I think of African babies all the time and send them money."

I don't think you and madhairday worship the same god. That is unless you're just being lazy and can't be arsed praying for babies to be cured. Come on girl, get lively, get a bit of healing going

...Except one more thing There are many, many more reports of healing in the developing world and in places like China and Korea - puts paid to the lyrics you adhere to about people being white and in a certain style of church....that's just wrong. Sorry :)

CY and I are definitely of similar mindsets. I might just be a little more....well....nutterish. Or something. But still fluffy

Tell Tim, he wrote it. I didn't really mean the specifics of it, just the general idea.

And in many parts of the developing world they still believe in witchcraft. Doesn't make that real either.

It all depends on how ready you are to believe in miracles or supernatural explanations for things.

"CY and I are definitely of similar mindsets. I might just be a little more....well....nutterish. Or something. But still fluffy "

Nuttier by the minute my friend but yes, still fluffy

Duh. Of course there's more 'healing' in the developing world. There's a lot more superstition in the developing world (belief in gods is just another superstition. THere is no difference between 'religion' and 'superstition' at all).The people there are more desperate and therefore more open to con tricks. They also have less access to actual medical treatment (which is why more of them are not healed, and die).

When people need "praying for" I just really think of them and how much I love them and how much comfort and peace I want for them. And talk to God about how I might go about helping them get that.

This is why I think religion does serve real human needs
Well of course it does. Otherwise such behaviour would never have evolved and propagated.

I read a while ago that there have been studies of 'laying on of hands' and there can be a real healing effect - but the 'healer' can be a total skeptic. (and the only reference I've found on the internet, the subjects were mice) So either there is a real physical response or else God is playing some strange games. He seems markedly reluctant to play ball in controlled trials on whether prayer helps healing; in a well known study, if believers knew they were being prayed for their outcomes were worse.

"in a well known study, if believers knew they were being prayed for their outcomes were worse."

I reckon this indicates three things. 1. That prayer is useless, obviously. 2. That when the shit hits the fan people start doubting their own dearly held convictions and will fret about whether this god actually exists, and 3. Even if they don't doubt his existence they will fret about whether they passed the test and deserve god's healing powers. All rendering the patient a bit more vulnerable than the other groups in the test.

I dont believe in any gods, or fairies or father christmas, that international antithief.

In any case there is more evidence for father christmas and the tooth fairy than god (although the evidence has since been comprehensively refuted).

I dont believe it because I prefer truth. The truth is good and important, and enables us to live a better life.
Lying is wrong and deceitful.

However I do believe Jesus Christ was a real person, with some great ideas on how to live life and make the world a better place. An ancient intellectual, his ideas have profoudly influenced our modern life.

Rational - my guess was that maybe people who knew they were being prayed for took a little less responsibilty for themselves. Who knows. It wasn't a huge effect IIRC but statistically significant - and unexpected, you'd have thought there would be some level of positive placebo.