Vicar not pulling weight

[feelingabitfedup]

As per name change I'm feeling a bit fed up as our new-ish vicar does not seem to be pulling their weight. They are a lovely person etc and I do like them but I'm sick of them trying to get everyone else to do their job. I know that everyone in a Church needs to work together as a team but surely the vicar should be leading us and encouraging us and doing something rather than palming off all their jobs on other unpaid people, most of whom are already working full or part time. There does not seem to be much flexibility in their life, and it feels like they are doing a job with rigid hours 8.30am to 5pm and time taken off that if they have to do an evening meeting and they have a fixed day off that cannot be changed unless it coincides with major festival (Christmas, Easter etc). Am I being unreasonable? Seems mean to be moaning about a vicar, perhaps I should just be grateful we have one unlike many parishes.

feelingabitfedup,

Has anyone asked for help from outside. Your diocese should have a parish development office, where they can take an independent look at how your church runs, and suggest improvements. You can also use an organisation such as the Church Pastoral Aid Society.

Do you think the vicar sees that there is a problem? Do the wardens and PCC see the problem?

What do you want the vicar to do that she isn't already doing?

Thanks, FABFE.

We are fortunate as we have many talented people to draw on. However, we are not in this situation by accident. It is a result of long term vision, prayer and commitment to transforming our town.

And we have to keep up the effort. We cannot get complacent and are away that sometimes there is a revolving door in our church.

And we do have highs and lows, and the occasional burn-out.

You sound like you're doing a fabulous job MtG

As I said earlier, I don't want to cause a row and I am only a small part of our wonderful Church, I'm just a bit fed up at seeing so people in the Church unhappy, they are my family!

Thanks for your comments.

FABFU, since you're around, can you tell me how many hours a week you think a vicar should do? By your own account, she is doing 51 hours (perhaps you want to subtract for lunch, in which case it's about 45 hours). Why is that not enough?

Sorry, I'm not badgering, I'm just really intrigued as to what would be an acceptable working week in the church.

I'm sorry if I gave that impression, I don't think anyone should do those sort of hours, although I know a lot of people in business do, and more. Obviously I don't monitor her hours but from what people close to her say I don't believe she does more than about 35 hours over 6 days and evenings. Is that reasonable? Should I be shutting up and stop moaning?

Included in that 35 hours ish are reading, prayer and meditation.

35 hours a week sounds perfectly reasonable for a job.
Though you'd expect some times of year (Christmas!) the total might go up, and drop back at others.
I don't think it's relevant that it's over 6 days/evenings, a minister's week is the same length as anyone else's, is till really baulk at the idea of only one day off a week! I doubt she's paid what someone working 50 hours in a business is. Perhaps the issue with this one is more how she's spending the time, that she is not sufficiently available to do the things that would be most important to her congregation.

Christmas isn't too bad a time for vicars. Yes, they have more services, but the sermons are fairly standard. The work a vicar does on committees and the rounds of meetings all disappear at Christmas.

I think if FABFU thinks there is a problem, we have to accept that there is.

I think a lot has to do with attitude to clergy and disappointment when they seemingly fall short. A lot of people think that the vicar is "the church", and they don't realise that they are too. They may be anxious to get involved on something meatier than the coffee rota, but don't know how to take that initial step. It is hard to step forward in case you get knocked back.

At my church, I wanted to have more of a leadership role, but was intimidated by those who were better at just about everything than me (especially quoting chapter and verse, and being able to stop and pray with someone in the middle of Tesco). For me, it took moving away for a few years, and finding growth in a different church. When I returned, I had confidence and experience.

What I have found has worked in my church is for the various ministries to run themselves. For example, when I was a SAHM, I was actively involved in Women's Ministry. We used to work very hard at how we could be more effective in our church family and within our local community. We didn't involve the vicar or PCC at all (except to ask for occasional funds). We just had to make sure that everything we did fitted with our church's mission statement.

Other groups do likewise. We just feel that the vicar's job is to equip us with the tools to be the hands and feet of Jesus. A major part of this is in preaching the word - explaining the commandments of Jesus, the encouragement of Paul, etc.

From what FABFU has said, I think they need to go back to grass roots thinking and coming up with a new mission statement for their church (or revamping the old one) and figuring out what everyone can do, and the vicar's role in facilitating this.

Actually it is harder to preach WELL at Christmas, and I'd be disappointed in anyone trotting out a "standard" sermon. Christmas IS a very busy time, at least in our church, with a lot of extra services! Not as busy as Easter though

"Included in that 35 hours ish are reading, prayer and meditation."

In case it is in question: So they should be!

A vicar who isn't praying, meditating and reflecting on theological literature is one who is in crisis. They haven't got a hope of looking after the spiritual welfare of other people if they don't look after their own.

Prayer in the very least should be every Christian but particularly a clergyperson's staple diet.

As I wish to be polite, I do not want to comment on how offensive I found the suggestion that your vicar is not managing her parish duties because she is overcome with housework concerns because of her full time working husband.

Totally agree shivs re the prayer and meditation etc, this is where it should all start in fact rather than just being an afterthought. Without that being the grounding the ministry will stumble and fall quickly.

BTW great to see you on here, you've been quiet! I love reading your blog. Hope you are all good. :)

dh tries to take Saturday as day off whenever possible; as I work Mon-Fri and the boys are both at school Mon-Fri. As he also works on average 5 evenings a week, often 6; this is is the only family time we get to spend together during term time.
However, over the past half term he has only been able to take one Saturday as a complete day off. This is fairly normal for Sep/Oct.

It is a vocation of course, a calling. But people with equivalent experience/qualification are earning 3x as much or more in other industries. Why should we expect vicars to work twice the hours for half the pay, and push themselves until they have a breakdown?

Its interesting reading this thread. I had always believed and still do thst being a vicar/pastor etc is indeed a "calling" and not simply a job as i seem to gather from some here.

One must be extremely careful in taking on this mantle as if you are not "called"you will NEVER be able to fulfill this role.

At my church that i attended for nine yrs, my pastor never finishes the work of the Father, he is AT WORK 24 /7 i really dont understand it when some say the vicar finshes at xyz or is off on xyz, even when he goes on leave he is still praying and interceding for the church.

We have 3 services every sunday, of 2 hrs each, he conducts all of them. this includes biblical teaching, praying and worship, to my amazement he has never been off sick in 9 yrs! We have various bible classes running tnroughout the week and he has to be present at all week.

In between all this he does counselling and other pastoral care. When he does go home he has to be contactable at the touch of a button.

There are those sick in hospital, parishoners with loved ones dying, various spiritual attacks, depression etc, even if he is not physically present (there is a large team supporting him) he has to be there to encourage and lift up his team.

It is not a job for the faint hearted and so few should go rushing into it unless continuous prayer has been made before the Lord with lear signs that you are indeed called to this position. Just because someone has been to the school of theology doesnt mean they can carry this burden.

Vicars are looking after so many souls and the bible says you will be held accountable.

Well I think as a congregation you should be ashamed of the burden you are (happy) to place on this one man, rather than celebrating it.
I assume you don't feel he has any duties to a partner/children/his own parents etc. You don't want a minister, you want a martyr.

My sister was a vicar until she had a breakdown due to the stress (not just from the role but that played a very large part in it). It seemed to me a terrible job to be honest, with very little real support and just so much emotional toll. Yes there was help from within the parish, but from talking to her I got the impression that organizing and looking after volunteers is much much harder than a normal work team because you are totally reliant on good will. Plus you have to spiritually support so many people, both directly and also through all your interactions. Then you have to be inspiring and write all those sermons and think about how to make special services to try and bring more people into the fold. She had to look after all the building and finance related issues (I know that was more of a surprise to her). Finally she had to manage funerals, with all the grief and pain that entails. I know that she had her faith to sustain her, and obviously it is a vocation (given the general pay and conditions it has to be really) but looking from outside it really really seemed a very tough job, and one very difficult to manage with any sort of space for a personal life.

I'm so sorry about your sister, nooka. It can unfortunately be a lonely job with not enough support in place and I've heard of a fair few vicars having breakdowns :(

My dh has a good support network in place for this post, which is good as it is so undefined as yet, very different to his curacy.

nokissy yes in some ways you are right that it is a 24/7 thing, in that the vicar is called to the job and it becomes not a job as such but a vocation, a lifestyle. dh says he doesn't particularly like the phrase 'work/life balance' because his life is in his work, however he does fervently believe in family time being of great importance, it's just what he does is so intrinsically weaved through with who he is that he can't just 'leave his work at the office' as it were. However I am more than happy that way, as it is a calling on me and the dc as well. And in that I have a responsibility to make sure he doesn't overdo it (well so does he but I'm more vocal about it ) For instance, if he was doing three 2 hour services every Sunday I would have something to say about that. He has been known to but only on the odd occasion to cover a colleague which is fine, but every sunday would be draining the life from the family IMO.

yes nooka, it's true that often people see the Vicar as the end of the line; like s/he is the one that's in charge of Care of souls as well as Cure of souls.
:( that your sister suffered because of it. I would say that quite often, women priests will be expected to deliver more, as they are doing "a man's job" - but that works in most employment sectors.
And noone really understands that vicars are people too, that have their own emotional needs. Who does the vicar turn to for support?

shiv - I'm totally with you on your last comment re: the housework! (although I'm sure that some people would cite the lack of looking after the home as a reason why women shouldn't be priests )

iggi the church does not place their burden on the vicar/pastor its the Lord that places the burden for lost souls on the man, and it is for the Lord to appoint the right man, hence why the church should place great importance on praying/seeking the lord for the right person.

When the right person takes on this mantle there is a spiritual anointing from God that enables the person to follow his calling as is evident in all the leaders chosen in the bible. There is an effective team supporting him not just some random volunteers, who have also spent yrs ministering before the Lord in various positions and are totally committed.

The problem nowadays is people apply for vicar positions as if they are applying for an ordinary secular job and then wonder why they are struggling.
Even the appointment of health professionals goes beyond the standard requirements, why ? Because they hold peoples lives in their hands, and they only look after your physical body, why would you not expect any less from someone lookimg after your spiritual wellbeing ?

Our pastors wife is also a leader in the church and works side by side with her husband. The children are also actively involved, they have marvellous family times together and are a shinning example to us all.

They do also have times when they are all physically away from the church but still with us through prayer.

We celebrate the fact that the right man has been chosen and there's nothing to be ashamed about, he will be the first to tell you to save your pity he is working out his own calling and you should find yours.

There are way too many half baked vicars running around that really should check again what is the calling of a vicar ?

I think iggy meant the church as in the body of people as opposed to the church as in the institution.

Nokissy none of what you've said explains why the people in your church think it's ok for you minister to be so overworked.
God may have called him to the role (how many times can you write "him" in a post by the way? It's clear women would not be called by God in your church!) but it's the congregation who decide how much of a workload/burden you are going to expect from him.

the latest edition of the NIV clearly changes "men" in this chapter from this week's epistle to "we" - which proves that the Greek would have used "people" not "men"
therefore we're all called, not just the men.

1 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1 You know, brothers and sisters, that our visit to you was not without results. 2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition. 3 For the appeal we make does not spring from error or impure motives, nor are we trying to trick you. 4 On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. 5 You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed?God is our witness. 6 We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. 7 Instead, we were like young children[a] among you.

Just as a nursing mother cares for her children, 8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.

Goodness nokissy, it sounds to me like the vicar's family at your church have incredibly high expectations put upon them, which could be counterproductive, for eg saying 'they are a shining example to us all' - sounds like the expectation is that they somehow set the bar for how everyone else should behave. Thank heavens that most churches only expect us to be merely human. My dc aren't often very much of a shining example; they argue, shout and generally behave just like most other children, and run around getting muddy knees and scabby hands

Sounds to me like the vicar in your church is put on some kind of pedestal. Really, we are all only human, and to me if the vicar and vicar's husband and family are seen as some kind of higher beings then a totally wrong view of what it is to be called by God is being underaken.

exactly - if we were all perfect, then what what the need for Jesus to be killed for our sins?

Nokissy,

I really don't think anyone responds to God's call as if it were a secular job. And the selection process by the DDO is very sound, followed by the ministerial training and curacy.

Vicars do not have to be burned out. They need to ask for help before this happens. Everyone who works in a church is at risk of burn out because there is so much to do. I know that I was burned out by youth work and had to take a break for a couple of years. As a volunteer, I could do this.

There should be a support structure for vicars in every church. We are all called to love one another, and this means loving the vicar too. The church wardens should be 'officially' keeping an eye out for the vicar.