John 3v16-18

[haram]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

These are very delightful verses but also very serious. Any thoughts or comments out there?

i agree lucycinco

but if you don't believe in it how can you be afraid of it????

'open his hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.'

Sounds like the perfect place for the atheist, nice and hedonistic. Aloha your in.

HRHQoQ I don´t think Lucycinco means she is afraid.

The conditions within the verse represent fear (and blackmail imo) though. Like I said imo in my 2nd post. People translate the overall message of the Bible to be Love, but only if you agree to believeth in Jesus.
If you don´t then I / god condemn you and what other meaning for condemnation than Hell - not sure there is other option or word existing. Its a black and white line. Unless someone translated the verse badly once upon a time.

Ruty going to sleep with your ds, bless, my dh did that last night and sleeps like a baby for 11 hours!

Sorry that your faith makes you hide Inthecloset - what message does that send you? Not trying to get you to come out, just if you and your faith speak the truth are we persecuting you? I don´t condemn its God that does that according to the verse in question on this thread.

I just don´t agree as the spiritual journey for me is derived personally and should be explored personally and not dictated in accordance to a faith. Then humans can explore more freely the concept of God, energy or whatever currently exists that we know of ..out there. Some Christians do and that is great, but they are a minority.

Are you coming out today haram?

Yes paps we all have a spiritual need and that is personal, even someone who believes that there is no god still has space for spirituality just a different sort.

I agree it is a personal journey and one which is troubled and hard our inner space and our outer personna are often at odds.

I agree with you two! I am not afraid. I have seen relgion used too many times to instill fear. I have seen it cause division and prejudice. i am not saying all believers are like this but it should be about love not condemnation.

about love - exactly it is -

The first statement in htat passage "God so LOVED the world"

The two most important comandments which Jesus gave us in the New Testament.

'LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

'LOVE your neighbor as yourself.'

oh and (slightly off topic) for those of us that ARE Chrisitians reading this - just read a fantastic translation of Matthew 22 on the Biblegateway. When Jesus was asked what would happen if there were 7 brothers, all of who died, each having married the oldest brother's widow and left her childless. His reply (as given by The Message translation

"29Jesus answered, "You're off base on two counts: You don't know your Bibles, and you don't know how God works. 30At the resurrection we're beyond marriage. As with the angels, all our ecstasies and intimacies then will be with God. 31And regarding your speculation on whether the dead are raised or not, don't you read your Bibles? "

just made me smile

Not hiding. On the whole I have chosen not to discuss religion on MN (although I have broken my own rule a couple of times) and merely use a different name if I can post a link to something on the JW website, this was sparked by HRHQoQ's post about paradise and am genuinely interested whether she believes the same us I do that this is an earthly hope as her posts last night seemed to indicate.

I do accept that this alternative user name may not be the most positive and shall choose a new one.

QoQ I am an aethiest, and rather resent the implication that I am therefore hedonistic. What evidence do you have to suggest that aethists are hedonistic? It is quite possible to reject faith without necessarily devoting your life to the pursuit of pleasure.

copy and pasting because thou art(st) ignoring the twig...

Could those who believe in the heaven / hell thing explain exactly to me what happens to devout muslims, jew, hindus, ba'athists etc who spend their lives in devotion and good deeds but refuse to accept Jesus as messiah?

do you truly believe, if there is such an afterlife punishment that they are bound automatically for hell?

Haven't got an answer Twig (mainly because I am a wavering agnostic, and as such don't 'do' nice, neat answers to this sort of question... you weren't really addressing it to me and my ilk ) but this question is as old as Christianity (or nearly). Early Christian thinkers were quite bothered by the idea of the eternal fate of the 'good person' who had not had the opportunity to 'know Christ' and what would happen to him/her after death. AFAIK at least some thinkers did allow for the possibility that such a person might be saved. They weren't thinking about devout people of other religions, though; more of a 'heathen' (for want of a better word) who had not been exposed to any religious thought at all. In the Middle Ages (which is the only period I really know about) Jews were condemned for having killed Christ, and Muslims were condemned as a schismatic/heretical sect. But then, no-one ever described the Middle Ages as a time of tolerance... Sorry, doesn't really help, but I am aware of this being discussed in that early period.

Hmmm.

I am still a little intrigued by a poster who posts only this, under the name 'haram', which is the arab word for 'unclean' and refers to impurity, or the opposite of 'halal' in Islam - and then doesn't return to take part in the discussion!

I do think that contained in these verses is the very serious 'bottom line' that there is, in the end, an absolute and unreconcilable difference between people of monotheistic religions: their religion relies on faith in their God, and they cannot countenance the idea of another god. So, they can develop understandings, but beneath it all will be 'but I believe I am right and you are wrong!' or 'I will go to heaven and you won't'! or even 'your belief is an affront to my god!'. Not a problem amongst people who are respectful of others' rights to live life their way, of course, but....

i think its aloha!

nooka - you've completely lost me - where do I suggest that Aethists are hedonistic??? I don't think I even mention Aetheists in any of my posts

Okay, here's my considered take on this.

IF Jesus existed litraly then this passage says that if you didn't believe in him you go to hell. But Jesus says that god loves all his children unconditionally, and we are all his children even if we don't believe. This doesn't make sense.

I think that to come to God through Christ means that you must try to be like Jesus. He didn't (to my limited knowledge) ever tell anyone they were going to hell. He taught through love and understanding. So to try and be like him (What would Jesus do) means that you would be reunited with God, the ultimate power we are all just splinters of. And therefore belief in specifics isn't particually important.

I could be wrong, but it's how I read it.

Yoo hoo - Aloha, is it you? (and is 'Hi Aloha' tautology?)

Sorry sorry QoQ it was Papillon, not you at all. I have a feeling that I was thinking about responding to something in your post, and then changed my mind. Apologies anyway!