Any one else mad we've lost sight of the real Christmas?

[slapheadsrock]

There are people really hung up already on the trimmings for christmas dinner. Why?
The lights are on already in our town centre. Why?

I'm so fed up that christmas starts earlier and earlier. And do any of the people out there stuffing their faces and houses with things give a second thought to why they are celebrating christmas?

Perhaps this thread will make you think twice this year about what you are really taking part in.

If you are not Jewish, do you celebrate Hannukah?
So why celebrate christmas if you don't believe in Jesus?

Feel better now. Thanks for reading.

I don't think it is. Perhaps for a brief period in human history it was but it wasn't before that and it isn't now. Not really. It is essentially a secular festival.

Then why celebrate that at Christmas?

Message withdrawn

the religious element behind Christmas is fading due to lots of reasons, i agree. I still dont see how christmas can be argued not to be religious.

an argument which says - yeah ok its religious - so what f*ck it i dont care i just want to get pissed!! - i understand that.

I think that Christians are unduly possessive about a festival that predates their religion, was created (or adapted) quite cynically simply to gain more converts, and has evolved to have less and less religious content. it sometimes seems to me that Christians are delighted to adopt the secular and pagan elements of this ancient festival but oddly irritated when non-believers have a nice time.
I also eat pancakes and give chocolate Easter eggs.

Yum!

I wish I had found this thread at the beginning.

Why oh why does it have to be a full tilt at consumerism ??

As a practising Catholic, I love and embrace Christmas, we do not buy for the adults, we only buy for the children. The money we would have spent on the adults we give to charity, well to a maximum of £100 per couple.

Then, if my whole family are all together we take it in turns to buy a small table gift for the adults of the party, max £10.

I have friends who are not Catholic and not Christian, who celebrate Christmas and use it as a time to step back from our increasingly secular world.

To me Christmas is about Family.

The Holy Family and my Family.

It is about having something to focus on in the darkest days of winter and that something, religious services aside is about a few nice, but not over the top meals with your nearest and dearest. It is not about Ipods and Ipod shufflers, it is not about buying enough food to feed a small village,it is about walks and talks and time together.

I hope this makes sense, because it does to me.

i agree that it has evolved, i have agreed a couple of times about the history predating christmas.

i do not agree that others cannot celebrate it. ofcourse as a cebration of a loving religion it would be wrong not to share it.

it remains however rooted in christianity. it does exactly what is says on the tin - in the name itself.

the modern christmas holiday is based on christs birthday no matter how we regard it or how its celebnrated. i agree a minority celebrate it as such.

more generalizations and assumptions about Christians! 'Christians are unduly possessive about a festival that predates their religion'. and the church 'cynically' attached Christmas to a pre-existing winter festival to again more converts. I can't agree with either statement, though i can't disprove the latter. Why can't both festivals co-exist and inter-relate? To me the pagan winter festival enhances my understanding of the symbolism of Christ's birth. God is alive and present in the natural world. Christ brings a human, social, message to the world in which we live to help us make sense of our social environment. Rather than the two being mutually exclusive, the two festivals are inextricably linked. No point either side being possessive, they are just two sides of a whole.

Message withdrawn

pruni if you're referring to me i'm just`trying to say that the 'real meaning' of Christmas is much wider than each 'side' claims.

Message withdrawn

fair enough pruni!

Love Ruty's Dad's analogy.

I'm Christian, and Christmas is in no way a big religious thing. Easter is the real biggy. But Christmas is really important cos it is the festival that a lot of people share. It is a time for families, it is a time for loving people and giving. It is also therefore a shitty time for some people, and therefore that's something we should focus on (as someone else said). That's all part of the giving, isn't it?

Jesus summarised the commandments into "love God and love your neighbour." Easter is all about the former, Christmas is all about the latter. So the real Christmas is giving, sharing, loving, being together. Anyone can do that whether they believe in God. And the most Christian attitude, surely, is to share with everyone, whatever their beliefs?

Ooh, I'm serious tonight. Better pour a G&T.

Parp.
Season of goodwill and peace to all?

Origin of Christmas - The Traditions and Controversies
For today's Christian, the origin of Christmas is, and should be, the birth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible. Nothing more and nothing less. However, most of what we witness on December 25th each year has absolutely nothing to do with that blessed day, which probably occurred in late summer or early fall about 2,000 years ago. In fact, most of the customs and traditions of Christmas actually pre-date the birth of Jesus, and many of them are downright deceptive in their meaning and origin. Here are a few examples:

The date of December 25th probably originated with the ancient "birthday" of the son-god, Mithra, a pagan deity whose religious influence became widespread in the Roman Empire during the first few centuries A.D. Mithra was related to the Semitic sun-god, Shamash, and his worship spread throughout Asia to Europe where he was called Deus Sol Invictus Mithras. Rome was well-known for absorbing the pagan religions and rituals of its widespread empire. As such, Rome converted this pagan legacy to a celebration of the god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god during the winter solstice period. The winter holiday became known as Saturnalia and began the week prior to December 25th. The festival was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

Variations of this pagan holiday flourished throughout the first few centuries after Jesus Christ, but it probably wasn't until 336 AD that Emperor Constantine officially converted this pagan tradition into the "Christian" holiday of Christmas.

and if anyone can find me a reindeer, a mince pie, some jingle bells, a christmas tree or a scented candle wrapped in tissue in the bible i will be most surprised.

but happy christmas anyway!

er, ok aloha, i don't disagree with anything that you've quoted or summarized there. Doesn't mean both festivals can't co-exist peacefully and compliment each other. They do for me anyway so I'll leave it at that!

also, whether you think it is a pagan festival or a christian one [or both, like me] the question still stands, does it have to be so over commercialized, and does our excessive consumerism really make us happy, at christmas or any other time?

what Pruni said.
I must say I feel extremely cheated.
the REAL meaning of Christmas for me is having a big old row about the outrageous hijacking of a fabulous dissolute p*ss up of a midwinter festival by Christianity
and look if you didn't go ahead and have that row without me while I was languishing in my hospital bed.
grrrr

I don't think it is necessarily pagan or Christian ruty
I think what aloha (and others) were saying with some force is that it is and can be a secular/cultural festival fulfilling a real need for something to look forward to in the depths of midwinter, a time to get together with family, reassess priorities, and eat and drink loads.
no need for any superstitious beliefs at all.
the consumerism is just a modern expression of an age old urge to excess in the middle of the bleak mid winter.

I agree with Harpsichordcarrier (Why the name? it's surreal!) but also agree that spending thousands and maxing out our credit cards doesn't make us happy.

I'm not a religiously practicing Christian or a Pagfan, but I still celebrate Christmas. Because as well as being a religious festival for the relevant religious, it is a cultural festival (having gained that status) and part of the identity of our year.

Also, without any belief in the virgin birth, or god, and with some scepticism about many manifestations of the organisation of religious institutions, I still think Jesus Christ made a big and enlightening impact on our values and ethics. So I am as happy to celebrate the birth of christ as I am to enjoy a mince pie. And as a non-religious person, I wish that it could be more about looking for ways to increase equality, health, and peace througout the world, enjoying the company of our families, friends, neighbours, and a lot less about heaps of expensive plastic crap from Argos, or getting rat-arsed and violent on stupid amounts of alcohol.

Harpy, have you been in hospital?

nice one Blu
and aloha I will have you know I do in fact carry harpsichords, whenthe occasion calls for it. just moved one this very week as it happens.
perhaps my life is surreal...
(Blu I loved your nativity thread btw. classic PMSL material)

[blu yes I have pre-eclampsia, but trying to hang on until I go into labour - currently 39 wks. keep discharging myself for the weekends though...)