'She believes we're decended from apes!'

[Bumperlicioso]

Said with incredulous laughter by a very religious acquaintance. Does religion preclude a belief in evolution? Apparently there is nothing to support it according to same acquaintance.

[CoteDAzur]

I don't think cognitive dissonance or intellectual dishonesty have much to do with it. My understanding is that religious belief has mostly to do with brain washing indoctrination conditioning - children are taught about God and religion at an early age, before they develop the intellect necessary to question what they are told. As such, it becomes natural, instinctive, a necessity, part of their identity, something they can't ever question rationally.

I know a few otherwise reasonable people who literally (not symbolically) believe that the wine & crackers served in church magically transform themselves to Christ's actual flesh and blood in their mouths. There is nothing you can say that will make them even question this insanity. Not because they are intellectually dishonest or choose denial because of cognitive dissonance, but because they have been conditioned into unquestioning "faith".

[CoteDAzur]

ladysbil - Tell us what you don't understand about the theory of evolution and we try to explain it so that it will "make sense" to you.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

ElBurro (great name! Or do I mean "great non-name!?" ), your post about the way we've evolved has raised an interesting secondary point about how we view ourselves. The approach of castigating/ mocking people for their beliefs and choices (about any aspect of life) is a way of separating ourselves from them, by saying "this person is not like me; there's something wrong with them therefore they are worthy of my (self-aggrandising) contempt". Which, in itself, is an act of cognitive dissonance .

[CoteDAzur]

"it would be much easier and simpler to just believe in what science can prove"

How so? I would think it is much easier and simpler to go through life with reigion as a crutch. Whatever happens, God is with you. He loves you and he is watching over you. Everything has a purpose. Bad things happen because God is testing you. Be good and you will go to heaven.

I don't think you would like the harsh reality of an uncaring and mechanical universe, not to mention the pointless suffering and luck-of-the-draw misery of an atheist's life, at all.

[CoteDAzur]

Speedy - I don't think you understand what cognitive dissonance means.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Cote - the whole point about refusing to question IS cog dissonance. It's about alleviating anxiety by avoiding a threat to one's sense of stability. It's an extraordinarily powerful force.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

What do YOU think it means?

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Btw your description of religion as a crutch doesn't fit the way lots of religious people think and live.

[Georgimama]

When I was at school there was a little group of fundie Christian girls; one of them told me fossils and dinosaur bones were planted by the devil to mislead us. Very strange indeed. At least one of her friends (who all agreed with her) became a doctor so I'd love to know if she eventually grew out of that little intellectual cul de sac or not.

[AMumInScotland]

Cote - my personal experience of religion is nothing like what you describe - it's far more challenge than crutch. I don't believe that God will stop anything bad from happening to me, or that bad things are a result of God testing me, or that everything happens for a purpose - though I guess I believe that there is some general purpose to the creation of the universe, it doesn't mean that there is a purpose to the individual events.

[CoteDAzur]

Speedy - re "refusing to question IS cog dissonance"

No, actually, it is not.

Cognitive dissonance is the state of finding oneself in conflicting feelings/thoughts. We resolve cognitive dissonance in several ways, including denial but also justifying, for example.

And there can be many reasons why someone cannot question something, not only cognitive dissonance - trauma, bowing to authority, and in the case of religion, indoctrination. Believers cannot question even the more laughable bits of their religion because they are indoctrinated into unquestioning acceptance.

You assume that believers make the conscious choice to disregard evidence that goes against their beliefs and practically lie to themselves to keep themselves happy in religious bliss. I think you are wrong. For most, there is no such conscious choice, for the simple reason that they cannot even consider the possibility that their religion might be rubbish. They are indoctrinated.

[CoteDAzur]

Of course, religious people don't see their religion as the crutch that it obviously is. Your life sucks? Don't worry, you will do great in the afterlife, forever and ever. Nobody loves you? Don't worry, God loves you and will always love you. Horrible things happened? It's ok, there is a reason why they happened and that reason is known only to God. Etc etc etc.

[CoteDAzur]

What do you believe then, AMuminScotland?

[Roseflower]

I am always surpsied when people make sweeping, blanket statements (presented as fact) about religious people as if they have the insight to the inner workings of every religious person that ever lived.

[CoteDAzur]

Thanks for sharing.

[halfcaffodils]

Has anyone been to 'Noah's Ark' open farm somewhere near Bristol? We were trolling around having a jolly time with the dc thinking it was just an ordinary open farm, when we came across the exhibition which explained how the dinosaurs were carried on the ark and the world was actually only a few thousand years old...quite astonishing and had never come across anything like that before.

[Bumperlicioso]

But cote, how do you explain people who come to religion (find god ) late in life?

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Cote, when you write about other people's beliefs, what qualifies you to speak with absolute certainty? I know a good many people who do not fit the very simplistic picture that you're painting.

If it suits you to believe that it's only indoctrination which makes people refuse to question, that's your choice. But you are wrong.

And, fwiw, though the way I wrote about cog dissonance may have been grammatically dodgy, the meaning clearly was correct.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Half - never heard of it, but .

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

People who come to religion late in life are sometimeslooking for a comfort blanket and/or some sort of 'explanation' for something bad that's happened to them. Or they are lonely and benefit from the group atmosphere/tribal identity of some or other cult and the rituals fill up their time.
Sometimes, of course, it's due to having become embittered by their failures or bad luck and they take comfort from turning their backs on the world and condemning everyone else in it.

[Roseflower]

Evidence?

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

Only anecdotal. I don't know that much data has been collected. Other reasons would include a wish to reconnect with one's own past, perhaps. Or indeed (given that there is some evidence that a belief in imaginary beings is dependent on certain specific factors in brain formation, and that superstition can be induced by zapping certain areas in the brain) a good bang on the head or a severe electric shock.

[AMumInScotland]

Cote - FWIW I believe that there is a God who created the universe, who wanted self-aware creatures to evolve, who wants to have a relationship with them. That Jesus was something new and unique, and permanently changed the possibilities of how humanity could relate to God. That God chooses to usually operate by guiding and influencing believers rather than by direct intervention.

[Himalaya]

AmuminScotland - its an interesting theory.

Why do you believe god only communicated with such a small group of people, concentrating on the Jews for so long, before branching out with Jesus and a more inclusive approach to evolved self-aware creatures?

Or did god communicate with others (the Egyptians, Hindus, Chinese etc...) in each-to-their-own ways but only tried out the new-and-unique version with the Jews?

Not trying to be cheeky, just wondering.

[Ormirian]

Counter with "And you beleive our ancestors were made out of clay and then a mythical deity breathed life into them?"