Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

The anti woo thread.

538 replies

LetThereBeRock · 04/02/2011 16:22

Can all those who don't believe in homeopathy,ghosts,talking to the dead,reading minds etc,please check in here?

There must be a few of us.

I feel as though I've logged onto allthingswoo.com rather than Mumsnet.com at the moment,and I'm not referring to this particuarly forum,but chat and AIBU?.

And if anyone says anything about how we should be openminded,I'm afraid I'll have to beat you to death with a a stick,one cut from an ash tree by the light of the first Summer moon of course.

OP posts:
TrillianAstra · 06/02/2011 17:35

"Do you want them ahead of you in the queue at the GP?"

Yes, if the GP has medicine or a procedure that can help someone more than a placebo then I do want them ahead of me in the queue at the GP.

I don't want people to die or suffer just because they have been convinced that "special water" is better than chemotherapy, or that eating lots of garlic is better than antiretrovirals.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 17:36

I don't think anyone has claimed that 'conventional medicine always cures'.

There's a fair bit of 'conventional medicine' which isn't evidence based. There are still, unfortunately, a few GPs who'll dish out antibiotics with no evidence of bacterial infection - that's even worse than woo in my book.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

PacificDogwood · 06/02/2011 18:04

This is now going round in circles.

So long Smile

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 18:38

You mean you've been shown to be quite wrong and repeating yourself doesn't work any more.

goodnight Smile

Trillian, anything else to say apart from that?

If you think placebo has value, then alternative therapies are the only way to deliver placebo right now, which means they have value.

You know, as I do, that in large part alternative therapy use is a willing and mutual deception; that users are able to absorb the cost; that side effects from misuse are almost non-existent and adverse events from non-use of conventional medicine while potentially serious are rare.

So painting it alternately as a huge moral evil, with catastrophic health consequences, and a brainless hobby for stupid people, is ridiculous.

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 18:42

"I don't think anyone has claimed that 'conventional medicine always cures'."

GrimmaTheNome Sun 06-Feb-11 13:20:53

"'Alternative' therapies always carry a risk of danger - simply that of the patient using an alternative to the real medicine that could actually cure them."

This is what I was responding to.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 18:45

I think you've a funny way of overinterpreting what people write Grin

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 18:58

You painted it as an alternative between cure and danger.

That's not appropriate.

cockneydad · 06/02/2011 19:02

My two penn'o'th: homeopathy has no possible way of doing anything. The dilution is so enormous that in some cases there is nothing there at all, sometimes not even a few molecules of the thing that has been diluted. Conventional medicine doesn't always get everything right, but in general, it is based on scientific evidence of various degrees of power (e.g. clinical trial or population study at one end, and case report on an individual at the other). Complementary medicine is a tricky term. I see a complimentary practitioner who is an amazing massage therapist - has helped me greatly with a back problem (that was made a lot better by surgery when I was younger). She also does other things like reflexology and aromatherapy. These in my mind (as a scientist) are much less 'concrete', but she doesn't claim they are miracle cures for anything (she was once a very senior nurse).

I think 'convential' medicine, or just 'medicine' has saved millions, but it is not perfect. Sadly people do get sick and die, or are (or are not) treated as well as they should be, and die.

If, however, there is something not 'conventional' or given by a GP, doesn't mean its always worthless makes you feel a bit better. For example, massage therapy, osteopathy (maybe accupunture) or tai chi.

However, I would never neglect medicine based on good science in favour of 'alternative' therapies.

cockneydad · 06/02/2011 19:04

should read: 'if it makes you feel a bit better'.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 19:07

A risk of danger.

My point was simply that if people think of any sort of woo as an alternative rather than a possible complementary therapy and miss out on proper diagnosis and in some cases a real treatment, that can be dangerous. Deadly, in the extreme case I was thinking of.

Have all the complementary therapy you want, but prayer (in this case) wasn't a good alternative to insulin.

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 19:25

Cockneydad -- I think that's a really measured approach.

the word danger includes the principle of risk : you associated only alternative therapy with danger and associated conventional medicine with "actual cure"

actual cures for anything are rare

I can't think of any disease cure: mostly it's sypmtom relief until the body recovers

Am I wrong about that? Very happy to be corrected but I am not sure that modern medicine has created a cure for anything

oh -- viagra ?

penicillin was a discovery not an invention

I think alternative therapy has a place in the modern world of auto-immune epidemics..

The homeopathic A and E is funny but off the point: trauma and surgery are quite a different kettle of fish

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 19:30

Hmm If you quibble at cure, how about 'effective treatment'? Shedloads of those, really.

I thought I was saying pretty much the same think as CockneyDad.

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 19:30

Amd I do wish you wouldn't keep directing comments at me like "have as much prayer as you want"

Are you trying to imply that I am being irrational? Seriously I am capable of assessing the relative benefits without being ridiculous much more so than many on this thread.

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 19:31

I don't think "cure" is a quibble. Yes, effective treatment is better.

Appletrees · 06/02/2011 19:33

Insulin is not a cure for diabetes. But it is an effective treatment. Take away the insulin and you are not cured.

Cure is like "unique". It's an absolute.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 19:36

The 'you' wasnt meant to be personally directed at you. Sorry, my writing is obvious too sloppy.

hermioneweasley · 06/02/2011 19:38

this is from sciencedigest - a local NHS authority was advertising for a senior homeopath (at about £60Kpa!) and this guy encouraged lots of mock applications. made me snort with laughter.

I might add this to the threads about "where should we start with the public spending cuts"...

STATEMENT IN SUPPORT OF YOUR APPLICATION:

I am keen to apply for this position as I am currently seeking work in the Scientific field. However, I am also considering non-scientific work, and the position of Speciality Doctor of Homeopathy seems ideally suited to the latter category.
I am a qualified doctor of Neuroscience, so am aware of many long and complex words which I often use to convince people I know what I?m talking about, when in reality I am just exploiting their ignorance for my own amusement. As such, I feel I would be an ideal candidate for the post of doctor of homeopathy. Ridiculous claims that I have successfully convinced people are true include the following:
· Australia is actually a different planet

· McDonalds make all their burgers in one restaurant in the USA and sends them around the world at supersonic velocities in hydraulic tubes (hence the squashed, flattened look of most burgers)

· Hiccups that last more than 2 minutes are an indicator of final stage lung cancer (the resulting terror of this diagnosis usually cures the sufferers hiccups immediately).

· The North and South Pole are actually the same place; it just looks different depending on how you the direction from which you approach it.

As you can see, I am highly skilled at convincing people that ludicrous notions are factually correct, and as such I would appreciate the opportunity to put this skill to use in the workplace.

Although not a registered homeopath myself, I am completely familiar with all the literature that proves the efficacy of homeopathic remedies. Other things I am familiar with to a similar extent are the number of palm trees on the moon and every Richard Littlejohn article which doesn?t read like it was written by a bile-filled screaming anus with a pen jammed in it.

As stated, I am not currently a registered member of the Faculty of Homeopaths, I am however a member of several institutions of similar levels of prestige and credibility, e.g. I currently own a Blockbuster Video card, and technically my membership of the Desperate Dan fan club was never cancelled, so I may qualify for a senior position in that long-running organisation.

Regarding the practical aspects of Homeopathy, although I have no certified training in the practice, whenever I make squash I don?t add much cordial, so am pretty good at diluting things. I also tend to pour a lot of bleach down my toilet whenever I clean it, to the extent that I worry that I may be personally responsible for the decline in cod stocks in the North sea, so clearly I have a very tenuous grasp on the effect of substantial dilution on the potency of a chemical, which could be easily ignored in favour of the salary offered for this position.

My personal research into homeopathy reveals that, following dilution, a homeopathic remedy should be ?succussed?, which appears to be a specific style of striking, usually with a leather book or perhaps other leather-clad objects. I have, admittedly, never practiced succussion, but I believe (should the post require it) that I shall be able to perform this procedure with no difficulty. Although I have, as I say, no direct experience, I did once affectionately pat a cow at a petting zoo. I have also worked as a cook in several kitchens and tenderised many steaks as part of these roles. A reversal of these two actions would logically lend itself to successful succession. I also have an uncle Greg who has extensive experience with striking things with leather (although he is legally banned from working with, for or anywhere near the general public following the scandal with the rooster, the toaster and the mail-order bride, so I shall only seek his professional advice if the situation genuinely requires it)

Unlike the majority of scientists, amongst which I count myself, I do not believe homeopathic remedies have anything to do with the Placebo effect. Although I find some of their songs (e.g. Nancy Boy) quite catchy, the ambiguous gender of Placebo?s lead singer does make me feel uncomfortable and definitely not aroused in any way (although I can?t say the same for uncle Greg). Homeopathy has never provoked any similar effect in me, so I find the comparison nonsensical.

It's true that there are many laws of chemistry, biology, physics, mathematics and basic reality that would prevent homeopathy from existing as is described in the real world, but I like a challenge. I would also bring more benefits to the role and therefore the hospital as a whole than someone specifically trained in homeopathy. The government recently stated that homeopathy should be available on the NHS as a matter of patient choice. I would be willing to offer patients an even greater deal of choice regarding treatment methods, up to an including exorcism and trepanning. More choice for the same money would mean even greater savings for the hospital and NHS overall.

I hope you will consider me as an applicant. To show my commitment to the role, I have provided as little information as possible on my application form, under the assumption that the smaller the amount the more potent it is. Therefore, I expect to be awarded the position, and a promotion and a raise before I even start.

I am a well-rounded, highly qualified candidate and enthusiastic proponent of teaching and promoting evidence based science to the general public and encouraging others to do the same. I need the money though, so am willing to say balls to all that if I get the job.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/02/2011 19:43

In my dic, the first definition is 'restore to health'

doesn't specify 'such that you can then stop treatment' Grin

cockneydad · 06/02/2011 19:47

hermione - I laughed my socks off at that !

Himalaya · 06/02/2011 20:04

The placebo effect is an important topic of research, and is a tricky question for practitioners of alt med therapies, and their regulators.

The existence of the placebo effect is not a reason to respect the 'value' of alternative medicine or hold back from challenge (or ridicule) of prescientific ideas.

The thing with real medicine is that there is method to it. Drs start by prescribing the thing that will work for the widest and most likely range of causes, and that has the least side effects, narrowing it down with diagnostic tests, trying different treatments in a logical progression, eliminating options for what might be causing the symptoms, referring patients to specialists when general medicine doesn't suffice.

Alternative medicine has none of this method. It does not have a single, well grounded view of how the body works, but it does have a single mode of action: placebo.

If it all works by placebo, then none of it is likely to work significantly better than any other treatment. But practitioners never tell a patient this: they never say 'you've tried three placebo based therapies and nothing has worked, I don't think your condition is responsive to placebo treatment' of course not, they think that their treetment works differently from the others and offer hope that the next in an unlimited line-up of therapies might work 'for you'.

So you get self limiting conditions like colic that are apparently cured by alternative therapies, then you get people with chronic and terminal conditions who can rattle around from one treatment to the next, as long as they can afford it, with no chance of getting any more than a placebo effect. And if nothing works it is not the fault of the therapy, but mayb they just didn't find the right one for them. Or maybe they wernt positive thinking enough.

Individual practitioners trained and credulous in their own therapy are not necessarily unethical or deceptive, they may well believe they are helping, but the whole thing does not add up to a system of medicine, but of woo.

It is this I think that is fundamentally wrong with the whole thing, and not worth it for a little placebo effect.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 06/02/2011 20:07

rofl Hermione!

BuzzLightBeer · 06/02/2011 20:18
Grin
BuzzLightBeer · 06/02/2011 20:21

Ita really not a thorny problem Appletrees, I can break it down quite easily for you.

Science- good.

Woo= bad.

Better?

exexpat · 06/02/2011 20:35

I agree with Himalaya.

Most purveyors of alternative medicine I have met are sincere, well-meaning types who are convinced that whatever placebo they are offering actually works. They spout enough pseudo-scientific nonsense to convince some people that it works, and in some - due to the placebo effect or pure coincidence - it does.

But they are also convincing enough to persuade some people who have serious conditions which could be effectively treated by real doctors that they provide a valid and equal 'alternative' to evidence-based medicine. That is why they are dangerous.

Has anyone on this thread read 'The Spare Room' by Helen Garner? It is a novel, but apparently a very thinly fictionalised version of real events - a woman with cancer comes to stay with a friend while undergoing treatment at what soon becomes obvious is a completely fraudulent alternative medical practice, and the ethical dilemma of the friends who try to steer her back towards treatment that might actually work.

It makes very sobering reading when you roam the internet and realise that there are plenty of 'alternative' therapists out there still peddling this kind of lethal nonsense.

balloonballs · 06/02/2011 20:46

Hermione! bloody hilariousGrin