The anti woo thread.

[LetThereBeRock]

Can all those who don't believe in homeopathy,ghosts,talking to the dead,reading minds etc,please check in here?

There must be a few of us.

I feel as though I've logged onto allthingswoo.com rather than Mumsnet.com at the moment,and I'm not referring to this particuarly forum,but chat and AIBU?.

And if anyone says anything about how we should be openminded,I'm afraid I'll have to beat you to death with a a stick,one cut from an ash tree by the light of the first Summer moon of course.

Here's a report from New Scientist on the placebo having an effect even if you know its placebo.

It was a very small study.

"real medicine that could actually cure them."

Grimma, can you list the number of cures you know about?

you might not need a second page

(having not read whole thread realise I may have just gone in a circle for some of you... - sorry)

Grimma -- cote and I dealt with that study ages ago.

"The researchers told participants that it could improve symptoms through the placebo effect."

actually I do believe in that particular study they told participants it had relieved symptoms, not just could

and that was a truth based on an earlier deception

you can't get away from deception and belief as the basis for placebo

Woo can be fun. All fantasy can be fun. But when the film ends or you put down your book you are supposed to come back to reality and know the difference.

Placebo isn't woo. It's a known psychological effect.

Homoeopathy and related woo are the systemic exploitation of the vulnerable and hard of thinking (usually for a nice profit though some practitioners are victims themselves).

If they have a placebo effect that is hardly excuse enough for their deception. Getting a really good bargain makes people feel good, but selling Rolex watches for £20 in a market isn't considered a respectable medical profession.

Woo also spreads basic misinformation about how the world really works. This leaves those convinced by it less able to deal with the real world around them and therefore does them long term harm.

"real medicine that could actually cure them."

Grimma, can you list the number of cures you know about?

Oh, I was thinking about cases like the couple who prayed for their diabetic child instead of going to a doctor and getting insulin.

Not sure what your point is because I could make quite a list of real treatments just from my immediate family without which they'd either be seriously ill or dead by now.

Appletrees - Of course I am talking to you. You can see that from the way I quote your words.

I'm not arguing, just trying to understand your argument. There is a study that shows some people got small benefits from sugar pills even when told they were sugar pills. So... what?

From what I have gathered so far, you don't seem to be saying anything of consequence, aside from few statements of indignation against the "attitudes" of some people on this thread. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm afraid I can't. Your last post about the sugar pills study -- I couldn't see who that was directed at at all.

If you thin what I'm saying is of little consequence, so what? No one else is saying it, so I am.

onagar - Nobody is saying "placebo is woo".

Homeopathy is woo. Its theory is laughable. It's practice is wacky (succission - shake so many times etc). There is no logic or sense to it whatsoever and It Does Not Work.

Any small benefit from it are due to placebo effect, meaning some people want to believe it will work.

It is still woo.

If you don't believe, you don't get any benefits at all.

That is because It Is Woo.

I didn't post the sugar pills study. Someone else did. Someone else posted it to "prove" placebo is possible without deception.

This is about deception.

Plainly there is value in deception.

Deploring it without considering that value is mere sentimentality.

OK Appletrees, whatever.

If anything else comes to your mind, feel free to share.

"If they have a placebo effect that is hardly excuse enough for their deception."

This is absolutely the nub of it.

Remember, we tolerate a significant degree of health deception from what people on this thread would consider respectable sources.

Intolerance like this, without properly understanding the costs and benefits, is just, I don't know, it's just self-congratulatory smirking.

Yes sure Cote -- it's a good argument but you just can't bear to say so, so you're pretending to shrug.

Tough. It's an unpleasant truth.

Shit, you're all saying my name and I haven't looked for ages.

Er, I don't believe in magic. Or homeopathy.

Will go back and read.

Oh, is anyone else pissed off that the webchat with a proper registered dietitian (a job that is highly regulated and requires many years of study) is being advertised as 'chat to a nutritionist' (completely unregulated, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist)?

Indeed there is. I could be rich if I were not so honest. :)

We do?

Herbal vs homeopathic.

I wouldn't say 'herbal works, homeopathic doesn't'.

I would say that herbal stuff has something in and so can have a physical effect, good or bad.

Homeopathic stuff, by definition, doesn't have anything in it, so any effect will be placebo (and you can get negative effects from a placebo, if you are led to believe that your medicine has side effects)

There was something in Bad Science about this - that buying a particular brand of painkiller is a placebo in itself. A recognisable box of promises can help lessen pain.

Appletrees, I am glad that cranial osteopathy worked on your baby. I don't know why you are so intent on fighting.

I don't know anything about osteopathy or how it is supposed to work, so can't comment much on whether it is 'woo', but it sounds like massage -> no more constipation, is that right? I can easily believe that rubbing someone in a relaxing manner could help them poo.

If you do blind wine-tasting, people don't like expensive wines any more than cheap wines.

If you tell them the (made-up) prices of some wines, they say that the more expensive wines taste better.

My niece died from liver failure aged 17 because she was drinking 'diet tea'.

It amazes me how people think 'natural' stuff is safe. Some Chemo is derived from plants and until fairly recently the chemo killed the kids before the cancer could do the job.

I am on the fence but in a strongly on both sides sort of way (very uncomfortable). I say this because I hate the way people are manipulated and exploited by this stuff BUT when you have no power over something like cancer it can help you feel you are doing something, anything to take control.

I have had horrible experiences (as previously described) but I have also encountered much kindness and care.

I studied the social history of medicine for a year as part of my OU degree. I was the most fascinating course I have ever done. I loved it and wish I could do a whole degree in it.

Modern medicine is pretty much evolved from a whole heap of woo. Of course it has moved on but some of it still lingers. The way diagnostics are still based on what has gone before rather than what is right infront of the Dr goes back to the middle ages! e.g. MrDevere you cant have MS because black men dont get MS or anyone who takes a 7 year old into A&E with severe abdo pains will probably be told 'it isnt appendicitis because.....'

I know its off on a tangent and its not as simple as that but we are not as far removed from our woo past as we think we are.

My experiences as an 'oncology mum' have left me with a weird set of feelings about all this stuff. If it doesnt harm, doesnt exploit and doesnt cost I am not fussed.

BUT whatever you do dont start telling me if only I had given my DD this or done that she might still be alive. I will jump off my fence and smack you right in the gob if you do.

OK, so there is an industry, with the backing of powerful folks like the future King and Boots the Chemist, much of the mainstream media (or at least the Daily Mail and Sunday Times anyway) which systematically deceives its patients and many of it's practitioners. And we as consumers chatting away on a forum are not supposed to poke a little fun....why, exactly?

X-post

Regarding homeopathy and the placebo effect.

The placebo effect works. We don't know why. You can give people pills of no active ingredient and they will feel better. This i great and we should be using it.

BUT there is no need for these pills to be expensively soaked in millions-of-millions-times-diluted-arnica. No need for anyone to talk about auras or chakras. No need to say that this is in any way better than conventional medicine. No need to pretend that water has a memory.

What we need is licensed practitioners to give out pills saying:
"These pills have no active ingredients, but they will probably make you feel better. We don't know how it works, but we know that it often does."
This is all true.
Mosty importantly we also need them to say that if there exists a drug that does have active ingredients, and has been shown in a proper trial to work better than placebo, you should always take that in preference. You can take both if you like, but take the real drug.

I read a couple of homeopathy books once, ie guides for practitioners.
One of things I found particularly fascinating was that under each drug the book would say, 'This drug can reduce symptoms of x, y and z. These symptoms can also be reduced by....' and would suggest lots of sensible things like gentle massage for tummy aches, getting more rest, etc.
no wonder people were getting something out of seeing their homeopaths. It's just a pity said homeopaths had to waste their time learning nonsense about succussions and dilutions.