Religion Chat thread number 1

[nickelbabyjesus]

I wanted to put some random thoughts and stuff regarding church, without it having to be a debate or a specific topic (and not prayers, either)

It's basically, a "what happened at church (or in my musical/spiritual life) this week" thread.
Please join me!

I'll start:

We had Midnight Mass (on Christmas Eve, would you believe!), and it was half past 11, everyone was sitting and ready for the service to start - I waved the organist to give me my notes: he was just about to plat them when:
" TAXI FOR suchandsuch " came blaring out of our speaker system.
There's a Wetherspoon's over the road and looks like the DJ's mike was on the same frequency as our radio mikes.
So, all the congregation started giggling and we had to wait 5 minutes until everyone was calm and collected enough to carry on.

(except, the arrangment that oreus has used is the same as cyberhymnal, so the extra word doesn't fit!!)

oremus

oh yes we do the verse chorus verse - but they've changed it and the words don't fit.

Ahh - yes I'm used to your first version - that was the one I grew up with in the Methodist Hymn Book.

just seen your comment - glad you do the proper way!

(without the fancy bit in the middle....)

ahh yes - I do know that version - I think the "other" version has been around a long time - I got my "new Methodist hymn book" around 1990 (and it was anceint then hehe) and it had the "modern" version in it. I suppose some of these older hymns will have been changed and adapted by different churches in years gone by.

However some of the changes in the Hideous Orange Book are just pure and simple sacrilege

jsut thoguht my comment looks wrong - it loosk like i meant Be Thou was the proper way - i was talking about Channel.

I thnk Slane is one of those that has been fiddled around with a lot, though.

I agree with your last comment - sacrilege

oh yes - Slane is an oldie, oldie, originally an Irish Folk one.

There's 2 "proper" versions - \link{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Thou_My_Vision\best explained here} (although there are other more reputable websites that refer to it - just not all on the same page

depending on whether it was the direct translation, or the English versification that was used I've found that most hymn books (I used to own over 40 of the things - all old ones - not modern in any way) adapted the tune stlight to fit/not fit the "be" in.

So in my mind - that's fine.

It's the messing around with hymns where you won't find another version like it any where else that annoys me

So MAry Byrne's is the first translation/version,so hers stands over Eleanor Hull's "versification"

and the version of the tune they've written is the one with more syllables.

yes, that's fine to mess around with the tune to fit/not fit the Be in - problem comes when you need to sing the Be cos thats what you've always done and it's the hymn book that's missed it out.

cos it's such an old tune, too.

Yes, you're right, messing around where there's no need to or no history of it that's insane silly and wrong

'Yours is the glory' just doesn't mean the same thing as 'Thine be the glory'. The latter is a subjunctive and therefore has the sense of 'May glory be yours', it's not just a statement of fact but an offering of glory.

It's not a 'modernisation' (though that would be bad enough). It changes the meaning!

Ahem...

Or something...

[TUO gets a grip...]

exactly correct, TUO - it's saying that we want to give you the Glory, as it's right to do so, not saying that it's yours automatically.
(that'd be like you saying tot yourself in the mirror "you're great, you are!")

to modernise it correclty, it would have to be "yours be the glory"
or "to you we give Glory"

interestingly, hymn time (which looks like Cyberhymnal has a Thione is the Glory with mostly the same words, so maybe that's what the weirdoes were going on....

the tune is called A Toi la Gloire, which means "to you the Glory" in french, which is obviously subjunctive in french.

this is book-compilers trying to be too clever - and fucking it all up.

and bless Mission St Clare for wrappign it round their heads!

yes - but her's is a direct translation versus a Versification. And in historical terms - they were both written close together - it would be interesting to see which was first used in the hymnal mentioned

I can cope with that - it's a bit like the King James Versions versus the New King James of the bible, and folk talkes and the like. They have been changed/adapted/written down slightly different in history.

But yes when they're change it to silly words instead of battle that's just ridiculous.

Slane btw was originally an Irish song that was first published in 1909, it was David Eaves who rearranged it for publication with Be Thou My Vision in 1927.

I wonder if the mix-up between the arrangements has come about because of Lord of all Hopefullness (also published for the first time in the late 1920's) and somehow over time the arrangements for each one have been mixed up??

Thine Be the Glory is Maccabeus (sp) isn't it - Handel???

was it really that new? i thought of it being centuries old - like slane first, then be thou.
well, i never!

possibly - although I think lord of all hopefulness has the same timing as the Be Be Thou.

I am mounting a one-woman campaign to Save the Subjunctive!

well - that's when it was first published - obviously like most folk tunes had been around a bit longer - but I don't think it's a centuries old one iykwim?

sorry, just looked at adifferent source - slane was old and published by David Eaves - i assume he heard it/knew it and was the firsst to write it down.

we need a scottish Church Hymnary....

no, you're right, i doubt it's centuries old.

most of the irish folk tunes I know date from about the 15/16th century at the earliest, and most likely the 17/18th.

yes - he knew it from the Irish Folk Song - and then rearranged it (I think for publication).

oh - and while you're at it - what's this French tuen for Thine Be the Glory you're wittering on about