Clingy cocker help!

[rollerbaby]

Hi everyone
I've posted in here before on the same topic, but I really really need advice. I feel like we are really screwing things up and I'm not sure what to do for the best.

Cocker pup is now 6 months old and I am 16 weeks pregnant. He is a general delight in all ways other than fact he is now going backwards in crate training and also not wanting to sleep in crate at night. We have been away a bit so he has slept on our bed as simply refuses to sleep in crate other than our kitchen (but even now this is a problem). As a result, he is getting more and more fussy and doesn't even want to stay in the crate after walks when he is tired (which he was for up to 2 hours).

I'm really exhausted and cant' cope with sleepless nights at the moment - i.e. listen to him bark for 2 -3 hours in the middle of the night but don't know what else to do. We gave up at 2am last night and brought him up to sleep. I know this is wrong, but it does become a case of what you can cope with.

I suspect part of the issue is that we have a good routine in week and then weekends we are away or people come to stay and he has non stop attention which he loves. As his nature is definitely towards the clingy, we are obviously not helping him then cope the following week. Is this normal for 6 months? Will he get more independent as he gets older? We can't leave him hardly at all at the moment which makes life impossible even to go to supermarket etc as I know he will bark non stop. Or do we just get on and he will have to learn? I don't know what to do for the best any more.

Am I mad to continue letting him sleep with us? I know the general advice is no dogs in bedrooms with babies, but would it really be so bad when the time comes? He is very good with kids and so long as he is on the floor surely this would not be the end of the world?

I really need help for nighttime which doesn't involve letting him bark for hours!!

Sorry for long ranty post...

thanks in advance.

oh honeymoo I feel for you, tired, emotional and with a big puppy baby to deal with too!
the sooner the pup knows his place the happier he will be.
persevere with the crate training, and absolutely make him sleep in there, every night. The first week or so will be hell, buy ear plugs, but he will settle into a routine probably faster than you will. As soon as he is a good boy and spends the night quietly in his place , then shower him with tons of attention , treats, throw a ball , whatever he likes.
It sounds mean but ignore him sometimes, call him to you to give attention- show him you and your husband are the pack leaders, it will be easier then when baby comes along as he will know where he stands.
I wouldn't be a fan of dogs in the bedroom , but as much for them as for you. Dogs are animals, not human and although we think they do , they do not feel hard done by , or neglected by being treated like dogs.
I recently moved in with my OH and my lunatic collie previously had the run of the house , but we decided in this house he was not allowed upstairs, or any access to the front door- he's very territorial.
Several friends have commented he is much calmer, we don't have the constant pacing in the evenings and he now gives a wee yelp when we get a visitor to the house , and not a whole scene.Treat him like the brave noble doggie he is and he will reward you with lots of quality loyalty and affection , but teat him like a baby and sadly that is what he will become - and you're getting one of those soon anyway!
good luck , hope this helps a bit, Tracey

thanks so much tracey. It feels like we've gone back to week 8-11 now and much of this is our own fault. When he started waking at 5am, we brought him up to our bed and it's just gone downhill from there really as he wants to be there all the time. I've been whinging about this for ages now and we really have got to get off the pot!! so, last night we went cold turkey: bed time at 11am. 11.15 - 5am barking non stop. I don't know how he does it!! I couldn't!! Anyway not much sleep but pillow over head plus earplugs just about works ok, but I felt anxious knowing that he was awake. He seems ok this morning but obviously a tired doggy. Lots of walks today and going to wear him out to the max and hopefully tonight will be better.

As much as having him sleep with us is lovely, it's not necessarily going to be ideal when baby comes as we just don't know how he or us for that matter will react and how things will be. It doesn't feel fair to anyone to have to then change his routine whilst dealing with getting a baby in one!

I'm concerned as he is going to board with his sitter for 10 nights in 3 weeks time. So I suspect she will have some difficulty as I know he won't be left in her kitchen and I can't expect her to lay awake all night. But, we will see.

Thanks for your post, really appreciate it. x

Honeymoo yes you have messed up and being straight talking you are right you have made all these problems yourself. You have asked for advice before and not done it so you have this problme to solve.

You did the right thing last night and you will have to do it again and again until he has learnt the new behaviour.

If you stick at it in 10 days time it should be sorted and make sure your bed sitter does exactly the same crates dog and leaves till morning. YOU have to be strong on this or as yo have already discovered you are going to be bringing up a very confused dog.

I would like to bet money that he will not be barking as much after 3-5 days! When you go into the room do not let him out immediately just put the kettle on and things for a few minutes and then let him out without excitement or fuss.

As my DS would say man up and get this sorted! GOod luck

I agree with minimu- well done so far another night or two and the habit will be broken - be firm! And def ensure the sitter does the same thing. You want him to be a happy settled pooch by the time the real baby comes along, keep strong it will be worth it !

Thanks guys, I know, I know we are to blame. We will get there. Minus sleep, but we will get there!

These other guys are right. Stick with it. I have a cocker who is 10 and she has always been incredibly clingy. She is also amazingly loving, totally loyal to me and the best dog I could wish for. We got her when ds was 5 and dd was 1.5. She has never growled, bitten or done anything horrid to either of them. But I cannot tie her up, or leave her in another room as she howls for hours. All because I gave up with the crate.
She has gradually made her way up to sleeping on our bed, and does make a good hot water bottle, She also only gets away with it becaus. She has cancer and deserves to be pampered.
Anyway. Fix the ground rules now, and then you can relax them later if you need/want to. Be strong.

Although I don't crate my pup Saggy (she is 4 months) and she isn't at all clingy. Nippy and biting sometimes during her mad half hour in the evening, but I can leave her for several hours and she is fine. She doesn't try to get upstairs and although she follows everyone to the kitchen, i think that's just pure greed

Maybe its a breed thing as my dog is usually pretty placid (retriever) and rarely barks. Obviously good advice on this thread though for the OP

I think noisy clinginess is a cocker trait.

Thanks saggy. Sorry to hear yourdog is so poorly.

It is all good advice. We are on night 7 tonight. So far saturday the best night. 30 mins barking then settled til just before 5am (which is when he was originally waking up) and then we go back to bed and let him sleep on the floor.

Last night was horrendous again and he barked intermittently, nearly caved but dh talked me down at a tearful 3am!! Terrible migraine today worst luck.

We are getting there in baby steps I suppose. All good practice come November...

Do you think it's bad to leave him sleep on our room floor at 5am? Or should we just let him bark til 7am?

Thanks all

glad you are getting there But personally I would not let him out at 5.00am.

He should by now be able to go through the night and he just has to learn that he stays in his crate until he says so not when he asks to get out.

If he does need a wee and to be honest I really doubt that - let him out and straight back into the crate.

Do be aware that he may get even worse for a few nights but this means you are getting to the end and he will stop (It is is called distinction behaviour!)

I have just got a 7.5 week old puppy who can go from 11.00-6.30 without needing a wee. So a 6 month old dog can as well!

Hang on in there it will get better - sorry you have such a grotty migraine - hope you can get some rest today.

Does he get crated at all in the day?

Cos I would walk him get him tired and then crate in the day just for half and hour or less and let him out before he starts to complain. That is showing him that it is YOU that decides when he comes out not him.

Hi Minimu

I think you're right. He definitely does not NEED to go in the night or in fact first thing. When we went away for weekend (before this all started up) he was sleeping with us until 8.30/9am quite happily so I know he can hang on, he just doesn't want to. However on day 2 of cold turkey he did poo himself in the crate after barking all night, but I suspect because he upset himself so much.

I'm so glad you told me about distinction behaviour, because we really were at wits end last night and like everything's getting worse not better. We have to stick to plan and not waste the last week. Ideally I would like him to stay in bed until 7 so I guess we will have to leave him bark until then. My worry is that he can hear us come downstairs and by the time we get to the door he stops barking, so it's hard to know when to let him out without him thinking he has "summoned" us if you see what I mean.

We crate him once in the morning and afternoon generally (except 2 days he goes to the dogsitters) but for no more than about 2 hours as he starts getting antsy. We will definitely try the half hour method. I had also started feeding him in there so he thinks he gets nice stuff in there... I also think that when he started coming upstairs he got noticeably worse about being left in his crate for any amount of time and this is also partly the reason I don't want him coming up, as we need to eventually pop out for a few hours and not worry that he is going bananas.

Do you think it's true that dogs have no concept of time and that it is fine to leave him for longer than 2 hours (but obviously no longer than 3 or 4)?

Thanks again!

What puppy do you have Minimu?

I think that dogs do have some concept of time but only if they need things eg are hungry, engergetic or need the wee. If they are happy they will stay for a while.

This is so hard for you and I think you are doing brilliantly. As you say once this is cracked you can leave him alone for a while relaxed and happy and he also will be relaxed and happy.

When you comed into the room it is great that he stops barking - I would come in put the kettle on ignore him and then let him out after a while so that his calm behaviour is longer than just pausing because you have come down. If as I suspect he starts to whine again ignore him and then let him out without fuss the minute he stops.

At the moment in the day I would not let him get antsy in the crate - so if that means leaving him in there for a little less time do that. What we want him to associate is that the crate is fine and there is no need to get stressed at all.

Great idea to feed him in the crate.

oxo I have got a border collie pup to add to the collection! He is going to be a working dog but at the moment is so cute - a bit like a fluffy bear

Oh how lovely. I love border collies (there is a litter near me for sale and I looked at the photos - exactly like little bears ). What did you name him?

Honeymoo, the ignoring worked really well when my pup first came to us. She was pretty hyper first thing but I ignored her for the first 5 minutes, made a cup of tea, opened the door to the garden so she could go for a wee etc, then made a fuss of her. It worked a treat. Now she is v calm in the mornings - its just the evening mad half hour biting sessions I need to get rid of

Get a baby gate and install a cat flap!! We have 2 cockers, one dog who's nearly 4 and a bitch who's just over a year old. The little one slept in her crate til recently, now she sleeps in the kitchen with the other one and we shut them in with a baby gate til morning when they have a bit more area to roam and they can use the cat flap to get in and out if they need to til we are ready to come down to feed them etc.
It was easy to train them to use the cat flap and although it's hard with the crate training at first you will get there if you persevere! We gave in to our eldest dog but fortuately he's very good and we made sure he had his own area (again with a baby gate) on a night and didn't let him upstairs unless we wanted to. The only time he sleeps in a room with us is if we are away and it's necessary, he always knows the routine will be the same when we get back home though and doesn't whine when left. Its just getting them into a routine, good practice for when baby comes! I am 19wks pregnant and hope all will be ok when we have another family member disrupting our sleep! Our dogs are pretty clingy but you have to have times when that's ok and not let it go on all the time otherwise you'll never be able to leave them. Of course a cat flap is not for everyone but it does enable you to leave them at home a little longer if they can get out themselves to go to the toilet and it might be very useful when you're otherwise occupied! Depends also on how big your cocker is too!
Anyway hope this helps, good luck!

Thanks ladies!

He's quietly sitting in his crate as I type this in the kitchen! Of course if I move, different story.... I take your point though, we need to go back to basics and get him liking the crate. Except at night of course, when it is tough luck. Looking forward to another night of pillows over head. Why oh why can you not buy earplugs that WORK?!!

I'd love a dog flap but our kitchen won't allow it as glass at the back which makes it a bit trickier.

Another few weeks and we will be through the worst of this!

I LOVE border collies... I bet he is a sweetie right now. How gorgeous.

so last night was good in some ways, v bad in others. feeling v fed up!! Dog went to bed at 11 and was very quiet and went to sleep amazingly until 3 or 4am, then woke up and barked non stop until we went down at 06030... to a crate full of poo.

he is obviously so distressed. I feel really awful doing this to him.

do you think it is too much too soon? or should we continue and hope he gets it? we are both at our wits end after this morning. Non stop headache etc and just wondering if this is all worth it. I know I need to hang on in there, but it is tough!!

Ok rethink time.

What is he like if you leave him alone in the day?

Is he with you all the time?

Can you leave the room and shut the door behind you and leave him in anoher room for a few seconds without him reacting?

I would be inclined to get a DAP diffuser and hang on in there a bit longer BUT I am not on the scene so can not see how he is the rest of the time.

When do you feed him and what

How much exercise/training does he have a day

My cocker is 2.5

I think they are a bit like this, mine will follow me from room to room, sometimes half asleep, until I go to bed, then he, gratefully, goes to bed too.

Might not be much help, as mine wasn't\isn't crated and sleeps on dc's beds (they are older). And he doesn't bark at all.

I really DON'T think you should let him in your room - mine is never in ours - as he will probably wake up EVERY TIME the baby does and when you try to feed the baby he will lick everyone's faces, which is the last thing you need at 4.00 in the morning. He might be weird about the baby too and it will be a pita.

Definitely don't have him in your room.

Does he get enough companionship during the day? Am amazed any cocker can stay awake that long!

He used to be okish at being left for an hour and a bit after walks and would then bark to be let out when he woke. That has definitely gone backwards and he is anxious when we are not in room although quiet in there if we are. He would prob start whining after a few seconds dso we are now trying your advice about nice times only in the crate and not leaving him to bark in there.
Dh works from home 3 days a week so he is by his feet when not in crate, which now is not too much since the whole sleeping debacle began. The other days he goes to his dog sitters and has a lively time playing with her dd and other dogs. He gets at least 2 30 min walks s day so think he is exercised right and eats dry eukanuba from breeder again which is fine. I play with him lots and he gets lots of cuddles.

So I don't know what we are doing wrong!! Obviously bringing him upstairs has really affected his need to be near us and just don't know what to do for best tonight.

I would still tough it out again tonight.

He has learnt that he can alter the situation by his behaviour and I think it is just frustration with that. He realises that it is not going to work so is trying harder and harder hence the distinction behaviour.

However if you are concerned then call in a behaviourist use one from the APDT website however if you give in now I doubt that you will ever be able to crate him.

What happens if you leave him in a bed in the kitchen but not crated?

Btw we tried the diffuser from vets but made no diffrence. Our kitchen is v large though so not sure it would be concentrated enough.

Am so nervous now about moving his crate particularly as he is happy to go to bed as last night proved. When i say into bed he runs in waiting for his treat! So he definitely knows what to do! I worry moving crate upstairs is just going to send us backwards but not improve his sleep as he just wants to be next to or on the bed!

God this is a nightmare!

Sorry x post.

I am inclined to agree. I can put up with more sleepless nights so long as this works! We haven't tried leaving crate open in kitchen with his living room bed in there too. Maybe one to try tonight? Or tough it out maybe longer?

At what point would you give up and get behaviour person in?

I'd go for the open crate in the kitchen, I think.

Is it mad to suggest you could do that v. small puppy thing and leave a hot water bottle wrapped in something smelling of you in the crate? He might take comfort from that if he's anxious?