tulpe, and other very recently acquired puppy owners

[Slubberdegullion]

I pick up my puppy on thursday. Am everso slightly over excited about it.

Can you tell me what stuff has been excellent and well worth buying, and what has not. I'm off to PAH tomorrow for the final bits and bobs.

So far I have:
crate
1 bit of vet bed stuff from Ikea (I'm going to buy some more tomorrow, how much will I need?)
2 bowls
ginormous sack of puppy food
a huge pile of puppy books
a clicker

so what else?

toys?
a kong? is she too young for one yet, she'll be 8 weeks on Thursday
a collar (iirc there was a thread about collars, what did you get in the end?)
a lead of some sort

tia

Oxo, I'm sorry my computer doesn't seem to be updating properly and I didn't see your post again. Karen Pryor is the clicker training lady I believe. It is well worth getting your head round it. The beauty is that you can get the exact moment of behaviour pin pointed with the clicker where as if you are doing it just by treats it can be hard to get it as you only have a couple of seconds. So that makes it much harder and I imagine pretty difficult to do anything at distance. The key points are get your timing right and always give a treat when you click, even if you clicked by accident.

If you can find an ADPT trainer who uses it, a few lessons are well worth going to, if for nothing else other than getting your dog used to concentrating when surrounded by other dogs (issue for mine) and also to check you aren't reinforcing something you mean to by accident as the timing is critical.

Wynken, Thanks so much for taking the time to post. Its a real learning curve for me as the only dog I had before came to us aged 2 years from a rescue centre. I'm asking for as much advice as possible!!

Can I just ask one more thing about puppy play biting and kids? My kids are 14, 12 and 8 and the puppy seems to hve a mad half hour every evening where she rushes around trying to nip them or bite at their clothes. She does this to me a little but not often. My kids are trying the ouch/yelp and turning away and about half of the time it works, but sometimes she is literally clinging to their trouser legs and pulling holes in them!! If I'm in the room (usually am), I take her away and give her a dog chew or do something else with her to distract her, like playing 'fetch' in the garden but am I simply rewarding the undesirable behaviour by doing this? What else can my kids do if the ouch and ignore doesn't work?

oxo - the Jean Donaldson Culture Clash book is so good. Really interesting and very funny.

Wynken - oh no I really want to go into the gun shop now, any excuse for a new experience.

I forgot to say that I stopped her biting my hand by having the treat in my palm, rather than at the end of my fingers. So I'm giving it to her like I would 'treat' a horse. She's a bit dim mind and is so desperate to get to the treat it frequently flew straight out of my hand and into the grass...cue me looking for it and her biting my hands thinking it was still in there.

We have a way to go yet!

I think I'll spend a day or two mastering the click and treat nicely method. If she continues sitting every time then I might add the word sit in tomorrow. I think that's how you are meant to progress it. I need to go and get the culture clash from beside the loo to revise that section.

Oxo, I'm on very dodgy ground here as mine didn't come until 16 weeks and she didn't do the trouser nipping that I've heard they often do. We really need an expert to join us on this thread, where are they all ? But what I have read is that with the 'ouch' noise and turning away that in some cases they like the sound of the ouch (ie. it is rewarding) and it can be worth trying no verbal response but that is a lot to ask of children. Would they be able to stand totally still looking ahead and not down at the puppy, arms folded and pretend to be a tree ? I'm guessing the older two could probably do it but quite a lot to ask an 8 year old with a puppy hanging off your leg. I don't think that distraction and showing her the correct thing to do is rewarding the behaviour, more correcting and showing what you want them to do so I would say it is the right thing to do.

Slubber, mine can't find a bit of ham on the floor under her nose if she can't see it if that makes you feel any better. I did warn my trainer about this for the scent cones as I find it quite hard to believe that she is eventually going to sniff a tissue with scent on my hand then find the scent under a cone, but I'm prepared to be surprised !

You are totally right, you get the behaviour happening consistently before you attach the word to it. Hand signals are great, they really respond to them and again good at a distance. So for sit when you train it you usually do it when they are standing with a treat going above their nose and backwards (I think, didn't need to do this) so to continue looking at it they have to sit (click minute bum on floor) and look upwards so people use an upwards movement for sit (think there might be signals in Perfect Puppy). Again with down you do it with a tit bit from a sit and take your hand downwards so hand movement is a downwards movement (click when chest hits floor). Once they get the hang of the movement with the tit bit in your hand then you make the same movement and start treating sometimes out of the other hand and then you introduce the word. You have to be a bit careful that they gradually learn to hold the sit or you'll train sit as bum hits floor then OK to get up again. I hope that all makes sense, I'm not sure I'm explaining it properly.

Oxo et al, I'm not v.qualified to advise, but I religiously follow Jean Donaldson and Karen Pryor. I find that with the clicker I can train my dog to do lots of new things every day - it's very fast. The making holes in clothes is a problem. I have been wearing cheapish jeans all the time for 6 months now so that I can be around the dog without being too paranoid.

Regarding commands. Jean Donaldson recommends clicking and treating for the good behaviour. Remember to do this enthusiastically and all the time for your puppy. Never miss an opportuntity to treat your puppy for everything you like. For example every time the pup comes to you, praise and treat - never ignore her or do something she dislikes. You want your puppy to think coming to you is always a lovely thing to do. Praise the puppy for lying down quietly. I treat my dog whenever he lies down in the kitchen, and while he's lying down in the kitchen. He's not yet consistent, but generally when I'm preparing food he will lie down next to me gazing up from under his eyebrows rather than jumping up on the kitchen surface.

Likewise (to make it easier for your dog to understand what's wanted and what's wanted) when he does something you don't like, have a word you use to tell him it's not accepted behaviour. I use 'uh-huh'. 'No', or 'too bad' or whatever are fine.

Donaldson's theory is that you need to stop thinking the dog is trying to please you, and start believing that the dog will do whatever brings about 'good things for dogs'. So make sure that everything you like also results in 'something good for dogs' like a piece of cheese, game of frisbee, cuddle and tummy scratch or whatever. Then the dog will do what you like.

'The Complete Idiot's guide to positive dog training' is a total clicker training guide for beginners.

I totally recommend reading 'The Culture Clash' first, which will get you on the right lines, and 'Don't Shoot the Dog' for more on positive training theory (which she also explains how to use on your spouse, kids and colleagues!). Use 'The complete idiot's guide' as your training manual. You have to train all the time, but it's not hard to get a well-behaved dog if you use these theories.

Have just read 'sit' section in culture clash. Need to do open hand signal (without using food as lure) first, before saying sit.
I'm jumping the gun

thanks for your posts Wynken and Romanarama. really good to hear how it has worked for you in practice.

I think I need to read Culture Clash, probably should have done that earlier really! Am off to reinforce whistle training as we haven't done it for a bit with this season malarky, can't wait for it to be over and have booked her in for her op in July.

Slubber - sorry, only just found this post . But it seems you have had lots of good advice anyway

I will have a proper read through thread now to catch up on new pups' antics

Am very excited After trawling through loads of MN doggy threads, I rushed out yesterday and bought a clicker!! Spent the rest of the day clicking and treating and its fabulous!!! Phoebe could already sit but I'm reinforcing the behaviour with click and treat. Is this right or should I be moving on from this? The sit is pretty reliable but needs to be worked on in different situations eg outdoors. She can fetch and toy and bring it back and is beginning to drop it everytime now and I think its down to the clicker and treat pinpointing exactly what I'm looking for

We are going for a walk in the woods now (with clicker and yummy snacks). This should be interesting as she is still quite reluctant to be on the lead although she loves it once I let her loose and sticks quite close by. Am becoming SUCH a dog bore!

Excellent Oxo, they are brilliant aren't they. Sounds like you are doing well. Use the click and treat to reinforce for now and as you said, in different places, try it when she's walking along side you at some point. Once your really happy with it then stop clicking every time and use lots of praise instead. The aim is over time ( you don't need to hurry it) to get onto random rewards.

Another good one to try is 'watch'. Get a tit bit, stick it in front of her nose and move it upwards. As soon as she follows it with her eyes for a moment, click. Then gradually you work to move it higher until you hold it between your thumb and first finger in a circle shape which you hold up by the corner of your eye and she should work up to looking into your eyes, ie. you click once she has made eye contact. Once you get to the stage where she will look up at you reliably a good few tomes, start to hold your fingers up to eye without holding a treat, she should still look up, click then treat but from other hand. You have then got a hand signal for it and can gradually work in command of watch or whatever you want to use. Again this is one to practice in different settings, gradually increasing length she will hold your gaze.

It's very useful to use if you want to distract them from something you can see coming or from the cat or a whole load of other things whilst out and about.

Great advice, Wynken, will try 'watch' this afternoon. Its funny but my pup is so reliable with 'sit' and 'paw' indoors, but when I take her outside, she forgets them completely. I have a problem in that she doesn't really like to go out on the lead at all and this morning, she was even a little reluctant when I let her run off the lead in the woods. She is still nervous away from home, although she loves it when we meeet other dogs.

Do I just have to persevere and encourage? The clicker did nothing for her today on her walk, despite this morning's success at home, and she wouldn't even accept the treats. She has started to hide when she sees her lead so I tend to carry her to the car. Can anyone help? What should I be doing to help or am I just rushing things?

oxo - no idea about the walks thing (we are still housebound). Why not start a thread and ask - minimu or bella are always really good on the training stuff.

fwiw re the 'sit', at the back of the Culture Clash book she takes you step by step through advancing sit, down, stand, stay etc. She explains about how to advance each action in more complicated surroundings.

re the clicker (you really need minimu), maybe you need to give better treats when you are out? Something TOTALLY fabulous (I've seen little bits of frankfurters or cheese being used on you tube clicker training clips).

We've had fun in the garden today chez clicker. Something I'm slightly confused about is what position I am meant to be in when I teach sit. Thing is when she sees the clicker coming out she is stuck to me like glue and looking up at me expectantly ++. If I walk around the garden she follows, I stop to do the hand signal, she looks up at me and automatically her bottom hits the floor, before I've had a chance to fanny about with the clicker, treat or my hand signal

Should I be doing some of this sat down?

ok - will do thanks

Oxo, we do really need Minimu or Bella or someone who knows properly what they are doing so good idea to have started a thread, I will feel much better when the heavy mob are on hand ! DH and I have been carring a 6x8 shed to our allotment so I'm not hugely coherent after a mammoth effort.

However, I think what you need to do is take things very slowly and get her used to walking on the lead with plenty of tasty treat eg. cheese, ham, salami, hot dog. Just take a few steps and treat, then a few more and build up gradually. Lead walking is quite scary for them I think, when you are small and there are lots of great big noisy cars around so I think baby steps until she gets used to it and she will. My dog made it up to the top of the drive at first then turned into a quivering wreck on the pavement as the cars went by so I took it very slowly and now she doesn't bat an eyelid if a great big lorry is bearing down on us. Later when she is comfortable with the lead you can drop the treats back to something less exciting and keep the tasty ones for recall.

Slubber, try a sit when you are sitting in the sofa or a chair or something and see what happens then. I think they do learn when you're going to do something with them and anticipate it in advance and the most common thing to do is sit as this is the one that we all tend to start on. Mine sometimes starts offering her paw, then lying down in anticipation.

Oxo my pup's taken 3 months to start actually enjoying going out. For weeks he would just sit on the pavement and point blank refuse to budge. I had to carry him far away from the house!

Am so glad I'm not the only one to do that! I felt a bit daft carrying this (weighty!) puppy around. I have to carry her around the corner and then let her walk home as someone else suggested

So funny - with all this clicker training (which my dog loved), she is wiped out and fast asleep! Usually this is her mad time when she races around the house like a Tazmanian Devil. Tonight she had a 5 minute 'tear around' then crashed out again!! I guess all this training is very exhausting

Attempting down this morning. Cue bleeding hands and nipped groin

Oh we're doing that too! She has done it a few times now but its a pretty sloppy down! Nothing like the sharp, snappy down I've seen in some training videos - much more of lazy drop to the floor with that 'wha'eva' look on her face

Its a much harder cue than sit though, isn't it? I'm rewarding this one with special treats like ham or cheese. Am still impressed though - am boring all my friends who have dogs by asking if they clicker trained them!!

Phoebe definitely seems calmer with all the mental stimulation though. Do you find this too Slubber?

Oh yes. A good 5 mins with the clicker is worth a half an hour of pottering about chewing my jeans (in snooze time). She's flaked out on my feet now

Yes, much harder than the sit. I've been doing the luring her under my knee to get her to go flat and lie down before I click and treat (hence bitter inner thigh). She is sort of getting there but still opts for 'lets chew this hand madly first to see if that will get her to release my treat'

ho hum Rome wasn't built in a day etc

How lovely, all these exhausted puppies ! It really does wear them out all that concentration and is really good when they are young and on restricted exercise as the exercise on its own sometimes (often) isn't enough I have found.

Lots of sympathy on the nipping front, sounds painful. I completely failed to teach my dog down. It took 3 eleven years old about 20 minutes, not my finest dog training moment.

Think I might have to start a thread soon on my dog. This season thing is really taking it out of her, she's been asleep most of the day apart from training session, having tried to put herself to bed at 8pm last night. I spun it out to 8.30 as was worried about being up at 4am. It's day 21 and I kind of thought she'd be going back to normal and I'm feeling a bit clueless now.

Oooooh ..............'Down' is nearly every time now!!! I love clicker training! Mind you, the treat is the ham I had put aside for the kids' packed lunches!! Oh well

ROFL Oxo, that happens in our house, then panic ensues when we realise no one remembered to get some more. Glad it's going well, I wonder how Slubber's fingers are doing.

No it's not that bad. I have to admire her stupidity tenacious temperament that her first choice for getting her treat is to bite me.'I love you. I love the treats. Let me demonstrate all my love by savaging your hand'.

The book says to remain serene and ignore all other behaviours until the dog lies down

hahahaha

I need an oscar for staring nonchalantly into the middle distance whilst enduring a toothy assault.

I've decided to leave down for a while

On the upside we do have a very nice sit to both hand and voice commands AND she is doing a beautiful retrieve without me having done anything at all (clever retriever).

I am enjoying hearing how everyone else is getting on.

I think sit and fetch is completely miraculous Slubber, you've only had her a week ! I'm sure I wouldn't have managed that in a week if we'd had ours from 8 weeks.

And to be serene and nonchalant whilst under shark attack is highly impressive. I've found 11 years of parenting DD helps a lot on the nonchalant front.

Making some progress here with these scent cones. She is getting the hang of going to each in turn and sticking her nose in and I think she actually bothered to sniff yesterday and found the chicken rather than me clicking when she stuck her nose in the right one. I'm not terribly confident that she has a future in search and rescue but if she could get as far as using her nose to try to locate a dropped treat it would be good. The DC's might have to fend for themselves if they get lost in the woods though.

Very worryingly I found her chewing a tan pair of lady's tights and they definitely aren't mine. I'm trying not to dwell on where she might have got them from.