Minimu

[Bella32]

Hi there

I just wondered if you knew if/why the joint statement re Cesar Millan had been pulled? I have just tried to link to it but it has gone. I know the youtube clip of him shocking that dog (until it screamed) to teach it to stay away from the cat has also gone.

Any info?

TIA

lol, not sure why I said leering over them, I meant leaning (not unless he really likes dogs!)

As a final comment - sorry, RL calls - every dog I have seen him 'work on' in his programmes (and I agree they are much sanitised versions now) has ended up showing signs of fear and stress in their body language.

I like to see my dogs happy and relaxed when I have finished training them.

Final video

here

Not the worst one - by a long way - but one of the few videos still out there.

ok, lets agree to disagree on this one. Mrs L & Bella (sorry if i missed anyone out) I do think that aspects of his 'methods' are barbaric, never did I say that ALL of what he says is biblical and should be used by all as training techniques, but there are things that he has done or said that have made me think about my animals in a different way, more in a dog way. So I suppose the psychology part is ok even if the method is wrong.

I do consider the professional opinions of others, absolutely I do but I dont think that you are willing to concede that he is not all bad either.

so lets just leave this one here shall we?

Sure. You might want to retract this though:

'bella - could it be that he has a sell out tour of the UK in March and nobody wants to write nasty things that are unfounded? '

thehills, I think this is not about whether CM's "all bad" or not. It's about him being a proponent of an approach and a theory which is outdated and disproven. An approach which has the potential to cause serious emotional harm to the dogs subjected to training under its principles (and serious physical harm to their owners).

The reason people speak out against him and his techniques is that he has had such mass exposure and popularity and yet isn't using techniques endorsed by professional veterinary and behaviour organisations. His techniques have the potential to damage animals, particularly when applied by people who are basing their behaviour knowledge on a half hour TV show. It's widely felt within my profession and others that there's a need to raise awareness that these techniques are NOT positive or accepted by most true "experts".

A much more important issue than a simple disagreement about methods.

I don't think anyone said that he was all bad, but then again, he's not all good either, is he? So if he is in such a position of power, with his TV deals and books and tours, people will use his methods and believe them to be correct - even the ones that you disagree with yourself. You obviously choose to use some of his techniques/thinking and not others - unfortunately, a lot of people don't have that much common sense. How many people do you think are using choke chains because it's 'cesars way'? So that's why personally would like to see him off the air. Not because I have anything against him as a person, but because I don't think his training methods should be so widespread.

Beautifully put, OhFuck.

Will go get a link to Cesar's Illusion Collar..

oh fuck - I do agree mostly with what you have just said. I agree that people who think they can go kick a dog will likely get bitten and harm the animal in the process, never have i said that i agree with that or many other things that he does.

I suppose that i felt a bit pounced on on the staffie thread as i said ignore the behaviour ala CM in the no touch/talk when excited. And then there is this big Cesar Millan is BAD type of thread. Maybe I am lucky that i have common sense and can choose which parts I think are ok (ignoring some things, positive rewards for good behaviour etc) and not use the other techniques that he uses - but because I think they are not appropriate, not because someone has said that is bad. Do you see what i mean?

And yes, I know there are a lot of fuckwits out there with out of control dogs who will think that a good kicking and a choke chain is the answer to everything.

Asphyxiation the easy way

Thehills - we're not talking about kicking. OhFuck is referring to the whole Dominance Theory of dog training which has been compeltely disporoven by scientific research.

It was based on the idea that dogs behave like wolves (disproven), that wolves have a rigid hierarchy (disproven), that they maintain that heirarchy by force (disproven) etc., etc.

I could go on but by golly it gets tiresome

Basically Cesar's methods take the assumption that most or not all dogs set out to dominate their owners.

No, they don't.

If, like most dogs, they are subdominant or submissive, then enforcing a rank reduction technique (such as an alpha roll - which, by the way, even wolves don't do) can result in a fearful dog which will bite through fear.

Whew.

sorry lots of X posts there.

I once left a training club because 'their way' was to use a choke chain - I said i didnt feel it was necessary and was frowned upon for speaking out against the Ex police dog trainer, so dont get me started on old fashioned methods.

bella - i was answering your question, that is why i think it was retracted, because he has a UK tour coming up which is a sell out. I would have like to have gone to see exactly what happens for myself, my own eyes. Who knows maybe someone on here will go and report back?

A lot of things written about CM is actually unfounded - the court case, as far as i can see is not proven.

Like many other 'celebrities' things are written that are not true amongst things that are true. I guess it is up to sense to decide for ourselves.

I really don't think all those organisations would have said what they did if it was 'unfounded'. They have watched the videos, as have I.

I can only assume that Cesar is now trying to save his reputation and that is why he is working with the American Humane Association and the statement has been pulled as part of that deal.

I've never referred to the court case

I've put links to videos up for you, and you still say this is all unfounded

Mind you, some folks thought the earth was flat!

And no, I don't believe for a moment that he will pin any dogs to the ground or use choke chains at the O2.

But he has done all of that. And his theories are fundamentally flawed.

There are much better, more humane and more evidence-based training methods out there. Sadly they don't get hours on satellite TV, but people who read books know about them.

ooops - I said choke chains but meant electric collars.

I do get confused between the methods of hurting dogs.

bella i have watched the videos, dont like what i see,especially in the one where the dog was locked in the garage. But surely the owners need to take some responsibility too?

I was using those as examples, can we just agree that we do agree on the whole but have different opinions on certain aspects? how 'bout that?

I do read books, lots and lots of them. I also speak to people about dog behaviour and I listen to others opinions too.

I would like someone, not the natgeo team to go back to ALL the dogs that he has worked with to see how they are now. Dont you think that would be interesting to see what has happened?

Right off to snuggle on the sofa with my 35kilo GSD puppy who is feeling very very sorry for himself since being castrated on Friday.

The owners do need to take responsibility, yes.

Anyone allowing their dog to be abused in that way is bang out of order, IMO.

Glad you finally admitted it is not 'unfounded' btw.

ok - some things are not unfounded, but some are slating him 'on the bandwagon' so to speak which is unfounded.

Well, I don't know who you mean. I'm not on any bandwagon. I doubt the RSPCA. BVA, Dogs trust, WSPA etc., etc., were on any bandwagon. I reckon most if not all of those outfits have a legal department who make jolly sure they don't run around jumping on bandwagons and issuing libellous statements....

I'm just responding here so I can come back with questions. I think there's a lot more to be discussed vis-a-vis animals and their natural instincts and physiology and how those instincts/physiology is understood when animals end up in a human situation and are still natural dogs despite all the history of breeding. But I do wonder how many people (dog owners or not) understand the physiology and psychology of dogs.

But I guess the base line has to be: how can we end up with a sensible and potentially useful discussion and sharing of views/knowledge when this thread includes a dislike of Milan because of his teeth.

I didnt mean you personally or the organisations in the UK, even some in USA, but plenty others have done so, just reading the articles that dont have any proper journalistic investigation is what makes me say bandwagon.

Sorry uglymugly, thought this was a lighhearted forum, I didn't realise it was supposed to be a serious debate I don't like his goatie either, fwiw

Perhaps if you want to have a sensible and potentially useful discussion about the physiology and psychology of dogs, you should start one? This was, afterall, bella just asking minimu a question - she didn't start a love-or-like cesar debate, thehillsarealive did.

Lighthearted. Can't type tonight.

Uglymugly - MrsL was just trying to lighten the mood a little.

You have a very good point though and, without meaning to sound patronising, I think a great many dog owners do not understand how dogs tick at all.

It is a great credit to dogs that they put up with so much from us. Of course, they are the only animal you can mistreat which will come back to you - that is their downfall

We euthanise more dogs due to behavioural issues than illness or injury. At least some of those behavioural issues are avoidable - with educated ownership.