Dog foods, can I run through a few?

[Disenchanted3]

Not literally that would be gross

I want to get my pugs onto a complete dry food and so went to our large pet shop tody to have a look.

I'm looking to get the 15kg bags as there are 2 of them (the KKCS) is still on puppy food.

The higher end 15 kg bags seemed tobe around £50,proplan adult, james wellbeloved, science plan.

Thenthere was Bakers adult at about £30 (but is on special offer at £20 at the moment)

Purina was £27

and finallyJolleys own at £23.

The science plan was also on offer down to £40 from £50 but I have to think what it will be in the long run rather than just this month IYKWIM.

I read that if the first ingredient is meat then we are off to a good start, i found it surprising that the jolleys brand was chicken first at 26% and that eukenuba which is double the price is the same at just 2% more (28%)

Just looking for advice on what I should go for really, I have no qualms at getting the top end ones but if the £20 less ones are as good then I'm happy with that.

Also are these foods complete, do you need to add anything else or just measure this out morning noon and night?

My pugs like to have chicken, carrots and rice in the evening can I add ths to the dry food, I don't want them getting fat!

Thankyou

iggy thank you for that helpful post, can I ask more about Barf?

It sounds like a lot, I thought the aim was 1-2% of adult weight per day, but you're giving 3%, how did you work that out? Also, are you guesstimating the amount of meat you've got on your bones, or does the weight include bones (and does he eat all the bones or leave bits?)

I was thinking of asking the butcher to give me a sack of bits and pieces every week to a specified weight to cover a whole week's meals as a simple way to feed Barf, but am not sure how much I should be saying 'without fat' or whether it matters if there's loads of fat on the meat and bones. Any advice? Tia for wisdom.

roman Mine does have alot, I was told 2-3% of you dog's body weight, so I went as high as I could because he really burns the calories off - and is very slim. I guess you need to go by home much food suits your dog - cos they all different?

I terms of weight - that includes bones in the chicken wings. I actually do pretty much go by guestimate on breakfast amounts tho. The dinner usually has the weight on it - or I roughly weigh it.

Fat is v. good for dogs - they metabolise differently to humans and they use fats for insitant energy - so I would give fatty meat in the mornings and leaner in the evenings. A good combo of fat and meat is ideal. Have you got a book? I have read a few such as the Ian Billingshurst ones? Also loads of info online. I have also read a good book on canine nutrition called Feeding your dog for life by Diane Morgan.

Only thing I would say is that you need to do a bit of research on your breed and on raw feeding and then work out what will work for you. Landywoods do readymade BARF meals - but I notice that bella says they not delivering to new customers right now...

I think minimu feeds raw? Am sure she would have excellent advice too...

By the way - the landywoods site has BARF advice on it, I don't exactly do it their way. To be honest - you will find lots of conflicting adviec about BARF (same as with parenting I guess ) - For example I will feed my dog raw pork - some people won't. You need to read up on stuff and work out what you want to do.

I think I'll read a couple of books and see (more £££ to Amazon lol). I don't live in UK, so am not sure where to look for a delivery and the vet/trainer/breeder all think I'm totally weird and quite irresponsible even to consider not giving him dry kibble, so no help at all! Asking the butcher seemed like a good plan to make it easy and if it's bit and bobs and offcuts etc I assume he won't want too much money for it, but I don't want to give pooch a lot of rubbish though.

Will read a bit first. Mine's a golden retriever and I guess he'll be a little bit bigger than your lab as he's 20 weeks and 18kg at the moment. Probably around 35kg I suppose.

My lab is entire tho - so he eats more than a castrated dog would? Also depends on you dogs activity levels?

Incidentally - not sure which country you in - but I wouldn't feed pork unless I was sure it was ok - which I am sure re: UK pork.

Good luck!

Only Belgium, so should be OK

You've reminded me that I went to visit a pig farm in China once. I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting, but I was quite shocked that it looked a bit like the biggest NCP car park you've ever seen. Not much like the sort of farms in the illustrations of my dcs' books .

The joy of BARF is that it is how you and I eat. I don't always have a balanced diet everyday but over a period of time it is. If you can feed you family you can feed BARF after all it is just food!

I feed most of my dogs 3% of the body weight but I don't weigh it every time - if they look lean I add a bit etc. You get to know very quickly just as you do with the rest of the family.

To start with pet minces with or without bone are great and as easy to give as kibble. Even PAH sell them! When starting out, the most important thing to remember is to keep it all very simple, and possibly stick to one type of animal meat source only, one that the dog likes and preferably also agrees with them! Don't particularly worry about finely 'balancing' anything at this stage.

Dogs need protein and fat and that can be obtained through a raw diet. They need some carbohydrate but that is obtained through glycogen or liver to you and me! So over time you will need to add small amounts of liver. Do take care here as too much can give the squits so you have to work out your dogs tolerance to this. I give a weeny bit each day others can give one meal a week. I give approx 10-20% of offal a week.

I don't give vegetables except as training treats but you can if you wish.
As I feed green tripe all the veggie material is already there and mulched. Just like a ready meal!

The braver you get and the more research you get you will not even need to give supplements mine do not get glcusomine or chronditon anymore as pig trachea is a very high source of this - higher than you would get in supplements.

Do go gently if you do change to BARF as a dog fed on kibble does not have the stomach acids that help to keep it healthy (hence all the people on here taling about dodgy poos!) but over time this changes when feeding BARF and they can tolerate change much easier.

So many owners spend hours agonising over what to feed their dogs and research for ages over the "best" kibble - if that time was spend reseaching BARF they are quaranteed to have a healthy happy dog. I also don't go with the "my dog wont eat chicken wings and turn his nose up at raw meat" If you kids said I only want to eat Macdonalds instead of healthy home cooked food would you let them? Dogs do have to be shown that BARF is edible and once they get used to it will love it. But again it shows you the processed fat that ALL kibble is coated in tastes great - like all junk food.

I do feel passionatley that many problems we see with modern dogs are due to nutrition, skin allergies, cancers, overweight, dandruff, kidney problems, liver and heart and many behaviour issues are due to modern feeding.

OK soap box away now and I promise not to read the feeding threads again.

minimu v. interesting about pig trachea - I didn't know that!

I think you do learn about BARF all the time - is great way to feed - plus you get lovely white teeth, shiny coat and happy dogs - what's not to like

I forgot to add that my dog has a couple of big recreational bones each week as well - that he gnaws on when he feels like.

Sorry tried to stay away but though a weekly menu of what my dogs get may or may not help.
Monday.
AM: 2 x Chicken Carcass's (Cost: Free,Source: Butcher)
PM Minced Chicken with Bone & Tripe (Cost: 26p per lb,Source: Landywoods)

Tuesday.
AM: Minced Beef (cost: Free,Source: Butcher)
PM: Lambs Neck (Cost: Free,Source: Butcher) Not eaten

Wednesday
AM: 1 Raw Egg+ liver (cost: 18p,Source: Butcher)
PM: Lambs Neck (cost: Free,Source: Butcher)

Thursday
AM: Liver & Heart (Cost: Free,Source: Butcher)
PM: 6 X Chicken Wings (Cost: Free,Source: Butcher)

Friday
AM: Minced Meat & Veg Mix (cost: 40p per lb,Source: Landywoods)
PM: Lambs Neck (cost: Free, Source: Butchers)

Saturday
AM: Tinned Sardines in Tomatoe Sauce (25p per Tin, Source: Market)
PM: Beef Shank (cost: Free, Source: Butcher)

Sunday
AM: Green Tripe (cost: 26p per lb, Source: Landywoods)
PM: 3 x Chicken Carcass's (cost: Free, Source Butcher)

Yummy
Iggy I agree.

No - you must stay, Minimu! We need your wisdom.

Mine have no problems with squits - perhaps because their diet is regularly supplemented with carrion and sheep poo

It's all very interesting - I can see why the pig trachea would be so high in the beneficial joint compounds. I just know I'm going to end up talking pig trachea with dh tonight

I do the sardines thing too

If you give a diet higher in bone you will not get squits. Nor will your dog. You do have to watch out on the bone content to start with as this can cause constipation but again as we are all studiers (sp) of poo no big hardship.

Talking of poo you will notice that modern dog poo is very orange and that some dogs will eat it due to the high protein content that cannot be digested! so what comes out really is the same as what went in. In the old days can you remember the chalky white poos? - that is because of the bone and meat that dogs used to be fed.

I feel a history of dog poo museum opening soon.

For me the worst bit of introducing dogs to BARF is that they tend to take the food out of their bowls. So when the vicar comes to tea he sees five dogs running around the garden dragging a trachea with them

mine occasionally hides a chicken wing under the rug 'for later'

So a chicken carcass is just the bones, is it - with the breasts etc removed?

I've inspected the dog food delivery and I'm not that shocked - think MrL was definitely exaggerating. Ok, there's a lot, but it's hardly going to bust the floorboards. I've left it in the boxes for now but I think I'd have to order more if I want to build a really impressive ND wall!

I'm glad to see that so many people are actually thinking about what they're feeding their dogs - it would be much easier to go to ASDA and buy a big bag of Bakers and some Pedigree slop Chum, but I think we all realise that it's not a good diet and will cause problems, just as I think we all realise that raw is the best diet, because it's what they'd eat naturally. None of us like to think that our choice of diet is causing our dogs to be ill or may give them cancer in later life (although I'm sure some barf fed will dogs die prematurely just as some chum fed dogs will live to a ripe old age, same as always). But not everyone is able to/wants to/can stomach feeding raw, so surely there has to be a best un-barf way of doing things too? If all convenience dog food (be it wet or dry, cheap or expensive) is so bad when it's compared to a raw diet, does it make any difference whether we feed Pedigree Slop or Orijen, if it's all going to cause problems in the long run anyway? I'm not being facetious when I ask that, it's a genuine question.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is, taking barf out of the equation for a minute (for those of us with no local butchers, no freezer space and/or weak stomachs that can't handle wayward pig trachea!), what is the best 'convenience' diet that we can give to our dogs to ensure they stay healthy? I know that it's a compromise feeding any type of convenience food over raw, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to do the best I can by my dogs either, and I find it all really confusing. So, if people want/need to do it anyway, what is the absolute best type to feed? Would it be NatureDiet and/or Orijen, or is there something better out there?

I can fathom what the very best food for my dog is but its not always afordable or freely available.

I think the Arden Grange food is a good meium for us, if they like it!! As its seems to be a better standard of food but I can get 30kg for the price of 15kg of more expensive food.

Put it this way... I love my kids mor e than my dogs but my kids don't get organic meat and veg everyday!

I can see what you are getting at MrsL123 but if you feed commercial dog food you will be giving additives and preservatives and cheap fillers to you dogs. I know you may need reassurance that there is a good food but I honestly think there will always be a compromise.

Even food that is preservative and additive free is not (as I have said before how can the food last for so long is that is the case!) The dog food company do not need to list the additives and preservatives that were added to the ingredients before it was made into dog food.

I do not want to sound like I am preaching as I do not need any of you to change feeding methods. I am 100% happy with my way of feeding I do not need to spend hours looking at ingredients etc on commercial food.

I would think that a mixture of good quality minced meat or tripe with ground bone would be better for dogs. There is no "better" commercial food.

I agree that BARF feed dogs may die prematurely due to accident but a study has shown that BARF fed dogs live longer. Personally I have had an 18 year labrador, 17 year old border collie who competed in agility until he was 13 all feed on BARF.

I am a vegetarian myself but am aware of the huge difference BARF feeding makes so if I choose to own Carnivores I feel it is only right to feed them appropriately.

Do look at the website IggyPiggy posted with explanations of ingredients in commercial dog food and that may help you.

what is really in dog food

My great sadness is that the pet food industry does pray on people and market their food as healthy and loving owners are mislead that it is the healty option.

BARF - meat blocks from pets at home

see www.anglianmeatproducts.co.uk with any biscuit/potato/pasta you want to add....(thouh appropriately split to feed a little pug!) and of course bones down for gnawing ( it think there was a thread about this..)

indeed vets will recommend science diets - they are induced to do so. But so many dogs just don't like dry food.

Disenchanted, I got my gigantic bag of Arden Grange cat food today and thankfully it's gone down a treat! I decided to give them some tonight just to try, and you'd think they'd never seen food before - between them they emptied a whole day's worth in one sitting, and then turned their noses up at their wet food. So hopefully that bodes well for your dog food!

"The dog food company do not need to list the additives and preservatives that were added to the ingredients before it was made into dog food"

I think that's true of a lot of dog foods, but according to their website Arden Grange only use Vitamin E and Rosemary to preserve their raw ingredients and finished kibble, although I agree that they're probably one of the exceptions rather than the rule. Saying that though, a lot of our own human food is able to be dried and stored without anything added (herbs, cereals, rice and so on), so I think the drying process itself is partly the reason it lasts so long? My Wainwrights has a manufacturing date of October 2009 and a best before date of September this year, so I don't think that's a huge amount of time (considering I've also got tins of tuna chunks in spring water with BB dates of 2013!). Of course nothing will ever beat fresh (raw or cooked) ingredients for dogs or humans - it'd be nice to have organic eggs for breakfast every day, but realistically it's more convenient to have cornflakes. Price wise and health wise I would love to be able to feed raw myself, but unless I re-did my kitchen to fit in a spare fridge or freezer so I could buy in bulk, or went to Morrisons every couple of days to buy 'human' meat (which would cost a fortune), there's no way I could do it, so I try to choose the best convenience food I can instead. Hopefully I've done that by switching to the Naturediet - they enjoy it and seem to be doing really well on it, so I'm happy. But I do find it interesting that you say there is no "better" convenience food, as surely NatureDiet with 60% meat, veggies and nothing artificial in it, has got to be better than Pedigree Chum with only 4% meat and loads of junk? Granted neither of them are as good as fresh meat, but I don't think they should be classed equally as bad either. I hope not anyway, otherwise word will spread and we'll all start feeding Bakers instead

I must point out that I'm about to tuck into a naughty chinese takeaway that DH is currently driving home with, so fresh vs convenience is a very apt topic for me to be talking about at the moment

Can somebody answer my chicken carcass question, please?

Thank you

Anybody there?

Bella when I think of the carcass (for soup etc) it doesn't include the breast, legs/thighs or wings (basically the parts you'd eat yourself). But I'm not sure if it'd be the same for BARF or if other bits are chopped off and used seperately.

Thank you, MrsL. I shall happily answer any of your anal gland questions in future

Bella you are right about the chicken carcass.

Mrs L123 re Arden that is exactly my point THEY do not add any more additives or preservatives but they have always been added to the food ingredients before they get made into dog food. SO the consumer is thinking they are buying "healthly" food which they are not.

As I have tried to say many times if you are happy feeding a commercial diet that is your choice but you do keep asking questions as if to reassure yourself.

I could go on to explain what meat products are but they have all been described in the posted links.

Naturediet has got a nice system going of packaging food in a "healthy" manner and listing "healthy" ingredients half of which a dog can not digest.

I am not quite sure what you want any of us to say. It would be inaccurate of me to say that commercial food is healthy. Of course it is up to you if you what you feed.