Has anyonr had to rehome a dog? Desperately in need of advice

[pandabob]

To cut a long story short, we are having to think about whether to rehome our dog, a cavalier KC spaniel. He has snapped at members of the family a number of times, seemingly from know where, one time breaking the skin on my dd's hand. It is a very sudden and aggressive snap.

We initially took him to the vet who checked him physically etc. We have then taken him to a behaviourist (also a vet)our vert recommended who was very helpful. Had a really long session, at the end of which he basically said that it did not seem to be an issue which could be trained out of the dog. He said he is generally a lovely well behaved dog, but he has an 'irritable' streak and it is for us to decide whether he is a dog we can live with. This is partly he said as there has not been any warning of him snapping, not really linked to anything, just if he's being 'grumpy'.

So we decided to be more careful in not disturbing him when asleep, being strict etc, however, yesterday he snapped again at a friends teenage daughter and scratched her skin. As people think he is a very friendly placid dog (which is is 99% of the time) it was such a shock for her and we obviously felt dreadful.

We have now come to the point where we feel no real option but to rehome him. Although we love him we, particularly dh, can't see how we can have a dog in the house that we can't trust to be stroked by people coming to our house (different if small children but this was a sensible, dog owning 17 yr old). The behaviourist has said he would be happy to recommend him for rehoming to someone without children.

I just feel absolutley awful at giving up on him and losing a part of our family and can't imagine not having him, but feel we're kidding ourselves by keep giving him another chance - which in a way has been easier as he is a small dog, but no less serious.

Has anyone else been through similar?

Thanks

Joolyjooly, that is what I am trying to get at, and what the vet said really. I recognise that we may have been at fault, which is why we went to see the behaviourist. As you say though my worry is the accidental crossing of boundaries with this reaction.

Don't get me wrong- I didn't mean you were at fault! as far as I can see, you are taking all responsible steps to try to manage his problem- it's just that sometimes, with the best will in the world, these guys can't be "trained" out of it. there are some forms of aggression that are more amenable to behavioural therapy than others, but I think one of the hardest types to deal with is unpredictable aggression. It also inevitably alters the relationship between you and the dog, which can mean no one is happy. I'm not really helping here, am I??!!

A proper behaviourist will identify the problem areas and give you tasks to work on to help resolve those issues, not just tell you that your dog has an 'irritable streak', btw.
Just depends if you are willing to put the work in.

What's unpredictable about a dog snapping if it is woken or has a high value object?

That is helpful Joolyjoo, all advice and thoughts welcome!

It was a proper behaviousrist Bella, he is on eof the leading behaviousrists at the Royal Veterinary College. We have also spoke with the vet and the behaviourist at the pratice. They were very honest really and went through in real detail everything we did with the dog. They did give us tips and suggestions, but they were avoidance really rather than training this unpredictable aggression out of him, which they said by the unpredictable nature is rarely possible to do. It would be more a case of not doing all the things which may or may not cause it to happen.

I still really do struggle to see what is unpredictable about this, in the instances you have described.

Its unpredictable because the op is not deliberately goading the dog awake with a big stick- it could be accidental contact! If my DH shakes me awake in the morning I might get a fright, but I wouldn't punch him in the grid! It's not an acceptable (or usual) response to contact. I can stroke my dogs while they are dozing. My dogs regularly sleep together and kick each other in their sleep, or walk over each other, and they never snap. the most I would expect is a quiet growl.

Some CKCS do have behavioural anomalies (like fly-snapping, tail chasing) which have been linked to abnormal brain activity. It's not always as simple as just training. The op has also said this is the dog's response to things it doesn't like- that in itself can be dangerous, as who is to know what will be the next thing it dislikes- some dogs are unpredictable in that they don't respond in the normal canine way.

The level of aggression displayed when the dog is not in his bed, not asleep, okay resting, but to bite, with no warning at all I think, and the vet agreed, seems difficult to predict and unacceptable. This is not a normal level of reaction for a dog. He is not repeatedly fussed over or disturbed when he is asleep, but to react in this way when touched or when someone does something he doesn't like is difficult to predict as the cause has varied.

I have wondered that about the CKCS traits, which is what the vet was suggesting I think, this could be a trait that cannot be unlearned. It is so out of character and sudden/unexpected to his everyday behaviour.

If a dog is disturbed then the first few times it might only growl - if that message is ignored, as the OP's family has been doing, then the dog has to up the ante and will snap.

Jooly - yes, some dogs can be disturbed when asleep and won't mind - others do. And they don't need to be 'goaded with a big stick'

This dog snaps when it is disturbed or when it has a high value object - that is predictable.

Would a muzzle not just take the worry out of the equation, just whilst you get him sorted?

Sorry Bella, how do you know we have been ignoring a growl? He has never growled or given any warnings. It has been a sudden all or nothing. He hasn't growled, snarled etc before that, previously etc. There is also being disturbed and just being touched slightly, which doesn't really require 'upping the ante' to bite.

And we certainly haven't been goading with a big stick!! I explained what I meant by strict, not going upstairs etc

No Doodlez I guess that is a practical suggestion! It isn't a frequent behaviour.

The big stick came from Jooly - not me.

You said that you have only now realised that you shouldn't be waking him - he's 2.5 years, so he's had 2.5 years of being pestered. Even if he never gave any signal before , his behaviour is not unpredictable. You know the occasions when it is likely to happen.

I realise it's not nice to be told you may have created your dog's behavioural problems, and much easier to write it off as a genetic anomaly.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, we have always known not to wake him and have tried not to do so. We have then made extra sure that we don't. However in a busy household if he chooses to rest in the middle of the lounge it does take extra care.

He has not been pestered for 2.5 years. He has had a crate and then a bed which is his space where he knows he can go undisturbed.

I have recognised in my posts above that we maybe at fault. Not trying to shirk at all. I was just passsing on both the vet and the qualified behaviourists assessments of the dog and their detailed review of our behaviour. But still do recognise our role.

Bella- I think you are being a bit harsh!! I don't think the op has really been treating her dog any differently from most families with dogs- many family dogs are happy to put up with far more abuse than just being "disturbed" occasionally (and I'm not advocating that they should be abused, before you flame me!!)

But it is not ever acceptable for a dog to bite. That shouldn't be its first response to ANY unwanted stimulus. This is not a fear aggression, and IME this is a very unusual response to what the OP is describing to fairly unintrusive behaviour. I realise not all dogs are the same, but very few dogs snap as a first defence- most would simply move away. I have seen a few dogs like this over the years, and it has rarely ended happily. The OP, as far as I can see, has behaved quite normally around the dog, and, on realising there is a problem, has taken all the sensible steps to try to sort it, from people qualified to help. I don't really think she deserves to be told it is all her fault, and it could be sorted if she just pulled her finger out and/ or allowed the dog to rule the household, and never touch it!

Jooly - I think you're the one being harsh now -

' I don't really think she deserves to be told it is all her fault, and it could be sorted if she just pulled her finger out and/ or allowed the dog to rule the household, and never touch it!'

I didn't say any of those things.

I did say that the OP may have created the behavioural problem and, based on the information given, I stand by that.

I still do not think the behaviour can be classed as unpredictable.

I never said the behaviour was acceptable, either. So go ahead and paint me as being a bit of a loon, when all I am saying is that this dog may be asking to be given more space, and may not have been allowed as much peace as it ought to have been. As a result, it may now be nervous and more likely to snap than previously.

Night all.

Bella, I don't think you are being painted as a bit of a loon. I have appreciated your comments and your initial advice was useful. But you have seemed a bit judgemental without wanting to really listen to the whole picture.

No worries though. It's made me smile, I've been on mumsnet for years but not been on for a while.

Yup, I am sure that's right, OP. I am sure if I had said it sounded like a genetic problem and that the behaviour was clearly unpredictable, then you wouldn't have considered me judgemental.

I have this really annoying little habit though - I tell the truth

Bye.

Bella- wasn't trying to paint you as a loon at all, just thought it was maybe a bit unfair to tell the Op she caused the problem and that it "depends how willing you are to put the work in" when she is obviously trying, and none of us have actually met the dog in question, or had first- hand experience of his day-to-day life- no doubt the behaviourist and vet will have explored a lot of the background, and IME wouldn't have shirked from giving the OP their true opinion. That's all- not trying to be nasty!

Anyway- off to bed- hope you get something sorted out, pandabob- best of luck!

Your opinion is useful Bella and i appreicate your viewpoint. But it is hard to tell the truth when you don't know the whole picture or listen to answers to your questions, so it is just your view.

I don't disagree with much of what you were trying to say though.

Perhaps just your manner, like I said, i forgot to put my hard hat on

Thanks Jooly, we really have tried to change our behaviour where suggested and try all avenues. Is emotional when an integral part of your life.

As Bella said, perhaps just crap dog owners and best rehomed which is where we'd got to - the option certainly wasn't for our benefit.

Night

I agree with Bella, though i understand your concerns op and your wish to do something about it. I think you should try another behaviour specialist as has been suggested.

Our dog is generally very friendly but he can get grumpy when he's tired. When he growls we leave him alone, just as you would a person who shouted at you. We had another dog, who's sadly no longer with us. She never snapped or growled at us but would occasionally lay into our other dog for no apparent reason. When this happened we re-established that we are head of the 'pack' by separating them and sending them to their beds.

I would suggest giving your dog space and letting him come to you or visitors to your house when he wants to. That way you can be sure that he's happy to interact with people. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to engage him in play, by all means, invite him to do so, just respect his personal space.

Try everything you can before considering rehoming as there is usually a way to deal with behaviour problems such as this and it isn't fair on the dog to do so. I would never rehome any of our pets and we have experienced some very difficult times with rescue animals. If you put in the time and effort you will get the results you want in the end.

Good luck!

Thanks Chalky, that's very helpful advice. Like you say, I just can't think how I will actually be able to bring myself to rehome him. (have got tears streaming as I type!!). I've just felt that would be the right thing to do as what we've tried so far we've thought had been working then he's done it again.

Thank you though, it's worth knowing it's possible to get through difficult times. Guess like parenting, we're never perfect parents, just awful when you feel you're failing.

Thanks

Bella has a fair point. IME a dog will learn what works, and if necessary he will up the ante. If he has even once or twice been disturbed from his sleep/felt his space invaded/his toy at risk of being stolen he may lash out. Result, the family back off. So, the dog sees this as a positive solution to the problem.

Here I go again, but it needs to be said... "the rescue I help out at" (sounds familiar? Sorry!) is rare in that it takes in such dogs - many will but will PTS, still more just won't take him. Only once have they been "beaten" insofar as they are unable to turn such a dog round. It can be done, it takes time, patience and a willingness which it's clear that you have and god I admire you for it, many would have had their dog killed or sent him to rescue and been economical with the truth. I have such a dog myself but after time and effort I can't just trust him 100% not to hurt me I know he would lay down his life for me (and me for him) BUT I can never trust him 100% with anyone other than my DDs and me. So, I accommodate for that. It can be done and you sound like the kind of person who can do it.

I'd really recommend reintroducing the crate as a place of safety and peace for him - sod the space issue if you love and want to keep your dog. Remember though NEVER to use it as a place of punishment or he will associate it with bad things and not security. You also need perhaps to continue with and reinforce the "I'm boss" mentality, with EVERYONE knowing the rules, a FIRM tone of voice command, rewarding positive behaviour.

If an incident occurs, what do you/your family do? Shriek and run (understandable but not recommended), stand your ground and bellow NO, or what?

Who does he get stroppy with? Who is his main carer/walker/feeder?

I probably don't need to tell you but to rehome such a dog isn't easy. Many "rescues" will PTS, others just wouldn't take him. I get the feeling that you won't give up easily (nor would, nor have I ever given up, again I respect you for that). I very much think that with your level of determination and love for your dog you are doing the right thing by not throwing in the towel as I honestly think you CAN overcome this.