2 aggressive labradors

[Anonymous612890]

We have 2 labs that both have fear based aggression. The black lab was rescued from a farm at 14 weeks and has displayed fear based aggression from the get go. We have tried a dog trainer and a behaviouralist but nothing has ever helped. The younger fox red lab has just learnt by example and she is exactly the same. If a stranger comes into our home we have to put them away otherwise they just bark and lunge at whoever it is, even if it is one of our children’s friends. We live rurally and therefor they don’t see that many people outside our house but if we are ever caught off guard and someone is walking past the dogs have on occasion run up barking aggressively and lunged at the person, yesterday they went as far as biting our neighbour. They were in our front garden not on a lead as we had checked no one was around, but were obviously wrong. We walk them in our local forest which is usually very quiet and they are on a lead but will still try and lunge at anyone who walks past. They do go to a dog day care and have been going for past 2 years and because they know everyone there they are great and the staff can’t believe that they behave the way they do with strangers. In our home with our family they are the sweetest most loving dogs. The neighbour they bit yesterday is obviously livid and wants them both euthanised. I’m at a loss as to where we go from here. Any advice would be very welcome, I’m an emotional wreck over it they are both young dogs and I love them dearly. I’ve been in contact with a few reduces and they’ve all said they wouldn’t take on dogs with any aggression as they’re struggling to rehome friendly dogs with no issues at present.

Weird they bit your neighbour as surely they know your neighbour?

My neighbours dog recently bit one of my other neighbours children and he hasn't been euthanised, they have had the police involved though. I always assumed if a dog bit this would happen but not necessarily.

Do you have signs up at your property?

Things like "please beware of dogs"

Never, EVER invite your children's friends around if you keep your dogs.

If you use Facebook it’s worth joining Dog Training Advice and Support. They have lots of guides to read, including fear aggression. Once you’ve read the compulsory guides you can ask the behaviourists questions. They also run smaller groups working with specific issues for a small fee (around £20).

I've been in your shoes, although I didn't have children, I had a rescued lab who was fine with us, but was quite a fearful personality, he'd also been abused in a previous home.
One day he just launched at somebody, although he didn't bite, he could easily have done. After that he was on the lead unless we were certain no other people were about. We spent time training all the basic obedience with him and made sure he felt secure and safe. If children visited he was kept separate in his own space. He became a wonderful dog who anyone could do anything with. They shouldn't be in a position to have to defend territory, so fence away from where they interact with people. A good dog training class may help if you explain the issues, many will help with smaller classes for dogs like this.
Fear is the issue here, it will take work and diligence to sort it. Having two who are the same will make it more difficult as they will be feeding the negativity between each other.

This is appalling. Your dogs need to be PTS. Are you going to do it now after the first time they've bitten someone or wait until they take a chunk out of your child's face.

you'll get decent advice on this fb group, but be prepared to put the work in reading the guides too: https://www.facebook.com/groups/374160792599484

Honestly, you know the answer here. Yes it's strangers they are lunging at but they could turn on you if they have aggression in their nature

I think you need to find a good dog trainer and go to regular training. I take mine to weekly group classes, have done for months, suspect I will be for years. It's good for the dog and good for me. It's £10 a session, nothing in the scheme of the costs of owning a dog

Your dogs are a risk to everyone but your family. I don’t think you have a choice.

I don't think you're taking this seriously enough.

It's entirely foreseeable that these dogs could cause severe injury. Besides the human cost of that, you would be negligent as things stand. reasonable foreseeability is the test in law - it's reasonably foreseeable that if you leave two aggressive dogs unsupervised in your front garden, someone could call round and come into contact with them. Save with walking them unmuzzled in the woods.

You could be sued for injury compensation plus things like legal costs, time off work, or for severe injury things like physio and therapy.

I wouldn't have children's friends anywhere near them.

They'd need to be very secure in an enclosure with locked gates and a high fence, and something in home to ensure they don't go for someone/bite the postie.

Saying not many people come by won't cut it I'm afraid.

I used to work in law - sued dog owners for stuff like this. if you get sued for personal injury it would make £150 for a trainer look like peanuts. And even if you have insurance, it piobably has t&C's that mean you have no cover if you know dogs can be aggressive.

Our local optician had a beautiful, friendly lab and a chihuahua. She used to leave them in the locked shop at the end of her half day Saturday, go for lunch and then collect them and go home. She'd done it for years. They just slept. One Saturday something triggered the lab and it tore the other dog to pieces. It was PTS . You have a THREE YEAR OLD in your house with two large dogs you know to be anxious,reactive and unpredictable. One day it is all going to go horribly wrong.

If they were rescue dogs then you need to go baby to the rescue and take advice.

"how many times are we supposed to have a behaviouralist that charges £150 per app out to assess our dogs and give us advice on how to improve things?"

There we go. Severe aggression in a big dog is a life threatening condition- it's a very common reason for underdiagnosis and under treatment of physical conditions , and quite a common reason for euthanasia in its own right.
But behaviour problems are often not considered with the same seriousness and urgency as physical problems. The older dog was aggressive from 3 months but you got the behaviourist at 5 months. I bet you would've have left him with a broken leg for 2 months. Sedation and Xrays to assess a fracture and a Robert Jones bandage to stabilise it would be about £600. Fracture repair a couple of thousand or more. All the aftercare appointments and sedate/reXrays to check fracture healing- possibly another thousand. And that is if all goes well and you can unclip the lead in a few months and say that the dog is fixed and will need no further input. No surgery comes with a 100% guarantee and you can still end up minus thousands of pounds, with a dead dog.

Fixing behaviour problems requires a lot of money , frequent time consuming specialist input and has no guarantee of success in the short term and no guarantee that the problem and no guarantee that the problem won't recur long term.

Your options are, in no particular order

1. continue exactly as you are, but accept the risk that if your dogs attack somebody walking on the road or public footpath, or anybody who innocently comes to your door, or if the nice quiet public forest has somebody else walking in it who gets attacked, you will be liable for damages. Plus your neighbours will hate you.

-2. Never, ever let your dogs off lead in public and only walk one dog per person at a time (as two labs can pull one adult over). Spend a small fortune securing your whole garden with an unjumpable fence if you want them off the lead. Shut them inside or chain them up if you're working on an unsecure part of your property.

1. Spend a bigger fortune and all the effort on many, many behaviourist sessions and enact plan 2 while you wait months and possibly years, possibly forever, while you wait for plan 3 to work
2. Euthanase.

I would think option 1 isn't very reasonable, and it drags unwilling people in. Having lived and worked rurally most of my life, and visiting friends who live rurally, running the gauntlet of "the house with the awful dogs" is horrible, whether you are on foot, bike or horse. Extra crap if you have a dog with you. Can't risk taking a child with you.

All other 3 options are reasonable. I'd be a bit pessimistic about option 3 in the older dog. Anything that is already aggressive at 14 weeks is usually a wrong 'un.

I did read that labradors are responsible for most dog attacks in the UK. I don’t think it is that easy to change dogs as they generally do what comes naturally. You could have them on the lead/muzzle the whole time they are out and completely fence in your garden with a post box outside the fence (look at how many postmen have their fingers bitten off by dogs) but it won’t protect your own children.

The neighbour could report you. If you have pet insurance, you might want to check it for legal cover. If you do have it, you probably have to notify them of the incident and of any potential claim.

You need a new behaviourist because that one hasn't worked or isn't giving the correct advice - or the advice isn't being followed?
You should really secure all areas so they have a safe space to run in your garden. They really need this because they sound very stressed & are guarding your property & you. They don't need to do this & need boundaries, secure ones where they can be stimulated & play. Put toys & agility or activities there - this is probably why they like daycare because they're active & stimulated.
As for your neighbour - I would go with a gift to his house, grovel, explain that you're going to secure the fencing (& do this asap), say how you are going to solve the issue so this will never happen again. And do it. Follow it through.
I'd be mad as hell too if I were him. But I'm also an animal lover & wouldn't want a dog PTS. If the grovelling & promise of correcting the boundaries doesn't work you've at least done everything you can.

I would PTS. I wouldn’t have a 3 year old around aggressive dogs.

you should definitely not allow them in the front garden without a muzzle on either. Please muzzle them when out. Someone else off for a quiet walk in the forest doesn’t want their dog or themselves to be mauled.

"how many times are we supposed to have a behaviouralist that charges £150 per app out to assess our dogs and give us advice on how to improve things?"

There we go. Severe aggression in a big dog is a life threatening condition- it's a very common reason for underdiagnosis and under treatment of physical conditions , and quite a common reason for euthanasia in its own right.
But behaviour problems are often not considered with the same seriousness and urgency as physical problems. The older dog was aggressive from 3 months but you got the behaviourist at 5 months. I bet you would've have left him with a broken leg for 2 months. Sedation and Xrays to assess a fracture and a Robert Jones bandage to stabilise it would be about £600. Fracture repair a couple of thousand or more. All the aftercare appointments and sedate/reXrays to check fracture healing- possibly another thousand. And that is if all goes well and you can unclip the lead in a few months and say that the dog is fixed and will need no further input. No surgery comes with a 100% guarantee and you can still end up minus thousands of pounds, with a dead dog.

Fixing behaviour problems requires a lot of money , frequent time consuming specialist input and has no guarantee of success in the short term and no guarantee that the problem and no guarantee that the problem won't recur long term.

Your options are, in no particular order

1. continue exactly as you are, but accept the risk that if your dogs attack somebody walking on the road or public footpath, or anybody who innocently comes to your door, or if the nice quiet public forest has somebody else walking in it who gets attacked, you will be liable for damages. Plus your neighbours will hate you.

-2. Never, ever let your dogs off lead in public and only walk one dog per person at a time (as two labs can pull one adult over). Spend a small fortune securing your whole garden with an unjumpable fence if you want them off the lead. Shut them inside or chain them up if you're working on an unsecure part of your property.

1. Spend a bigger fortune and all the effort on many, many behaviourist sessions and enact plan 2 while you wait months and possibly years, possibly forever, while you wait for plan 3 to work
2. Euthanase.

I would think option 1 isn't very reasonable, and it drags unwilling people in. Having lived and worked rurally most of my life, and visiting friends who live rurally, running the gauntlet of "the house with the awful dogs" is horrible, whether you are on foot, bike or horse. Extra crap if you have a dog with you. Can't risk taking a child with you.

All other 3 options are reasonable. I'd be a bit pessimistic about option 3 in the older dog. Anything that is already aggressive at 14 weeks is usually a wrong 'un.

@Diomi

I also have seen that about labs but couldn’t think where to find the link

op you are playing a very dangerous game

people are saying the dogs are attacking out of fear which can make us have a more sympathetic approach to your story but in reality look at the story with the chihuahua and the lab - I doubt the lab was fearful of that little dog.

And your post complaining about spending the £150 was very uncouth

you need to wake up sharpish

This. I have 4 kids and we have researched long what dog to get, visited breeder etc. we were lucky she is the best thing ever. Even so while the kids were small I never allowed them to stay alone with Jess. You just never know. You read so many horror stories recently of family dogs seriously injuring or killing family members and/or owners. People just don't take advice or do not listen to their instincts. Dogs are like humans, there are some that are born different and that might mean they will be prone to behavioural problems no matter what you do. Having two of this and having kids is an absolute no no. I would get rid of them one way or another. OP says their entire lives are turning around the behaviour of these two dogs. It is not normal to live like this. The parents whose kids come to visit have the right to know about the situation and make the decision whether they are ok with two big dogs being reactive. I personally would not. As the dogs age they can get worse and if there is an innate issue with the original dog there might be some nasty surprises in store down the line. Clearly the property is not secured if they got to the neighbour. Dogs will find a way to escape if they really want to from a garden. Dog bites no matter how small cause psychological damage. To be quite brutal that French lady that is wearing the face of a dead person and takes medication for life that causes cancer to be able to keep it on had two labs as well. Her own dogs attacked her. To me this is a Russian roulette situation. As sad as it is the safety of my kids is worth more than two dogs. Nobody will judge you if you prioritise your kids in this situation.

From the details you've given, it sounds like you got the older dog around the time your youngest child was born, and the younger dog around a year later?
In all honesty, it sounds like not enough time has been invested in these dogs in their early years. It’s understandable - you've got 3 kids so it must be a busy household. Labs are highly intelligent and these 2 have worked out that they are the kings of the castle at home hence the behaviour when anyone comes to or near your home. This is something that can be trained out of them, but unless you're prepared to put the work in (which is likely going to need at least a couple of hours every day for walks and training) they will not change.
I’m an absolute dog lover and have always had them up til recently. However in this instance I would look to re home them or have them PTS.

Can you clarify, in case I missed it, did they get out of your garden or were they and the neighbour on your property?

"we have 3 young kids oldest is 9 youngest is 3"

Just read that update. Option 4 all the way if it was my dogs. Too much risk of two anxious, wound up dogs hearing a rattle at the gate, winding each other up further and letting fly at the nearest moving object which might be a child's face.

I'm wondering how the bite actually happened?
Can the dogs reach passers by from say over a low fence or wall or did the neighbour stick their hand through?
Either way what I'd do is contact a different behaviourist. One who is registered with APBC would be a good start, then work with them and possibly the vet (anti anxiety meds if needed). Directions have to be followed to the letter and it would be best to work with each dog 1-1.
Definitely muzzle train and look at third party insurance if you don't have it already.