Newly diagnosed diabetes in a dog........help with diet please?

[whispywhisp]

A mate of mine has just had her lovely 11yo female mongrel diagnosed with diabetes. Fortunately she managed to get the dog to the vet quickly and is now injecting daily insulin which is helping, albeit slowly.

She has been told to feed the dog on a prescription only diet, available from the vet, which the dog won't eat.

Up until now the dog has eaten a mainly home cooked diet with dried dog biscuits put on top. She's been told the dog biscuits are not ideal because they contain sugar. She has also been told not to give the dog chicken or fish etc - yet the dog will happily eat a home cooked meal.

Has anyone got any advice on what can be fed to a dog with diabetes? Please? I find it hard to believe that there is sugar in chicken and fish!

No they don't have their own blood testing machines - they send everything off - they can test urine at the practice though, which they have been doing.

They don't have an out of hours centre - they simply have a vet on call for advice on the phone or they will come to your home or meet you at the practice.

I have told her that she ought to look at getting the dog into the vets and intravenously (sp?) helped out but she doesn't seem keen to do so - I think she is giving up as much as the dog at the moment. It is very sad but what else can I do?

So based on what I've told you do you think there is a serious underlying problem that needs to be addressed apart from the diabetes? Is it probable that something else has caused the diabetes?

It is really hard to say having not been able to see the dog what else is going on, but this is just not sounding straightforward.

Ultimately it is her choice as to whether or not to take things further with the treatment. My personal feeling is that the dog should either have "all" - ie intravenous fluids, further tests to find out more or eliminate other problems etc, - or nothing - put to sleep. The way the dog sounds at the moment does just not sound fair really - but it is very hard to judge information that is not first hand too - no disrespect to yourself at all though.

Let us hope for a swift resolution to the suffering, however it is acheived.

Well she has just rung me to say the dog followed her out into the garden late this afternoon, wagging its tail, jumping up at the gate so she took her for a walk and she ran off sticking her head down rabbit holes, which she normally does, came home, ate some more sausages and is now sat, bright and alert, in the hallway watching what is going on!

Can the insulin take all day to get into the dog's system? Is that normal behaviour?

Also is the diet I'm providing for my elderly lab adequate, in your opinion BG? Thanks!

Wow! Glad she is happier. Insulin metabolism is hugely variable. Some individuals will break it down quicker than others and certain types of insulin are quicker acting than others so there is no set answer as to what will be the case. One of the things that can be done is a glucose curve. The blood glucose level is measured every 1-2 hours through the day to see how the levels are affected by the doses of insulin given. It can then give clues as to whether more insulin is required or maybe a longer acting insulin or even twice daily dosing. These curves are more often done by the vet but can be done in a home situation too. Even a vet without the usual blood testing machines for other things can do them - we just use a human finger prick test kit from Boots. Vets would take the blood from a vein, but depending upon the dog sometimes owners can do it by pricking the ear and squeezing a drop of blood out and checking it. The interpretation would need to be done by the vet though still.

Your dog's diet does not sound too bad as you have a basis of dog biscuits in it and you are using a mixture of other bits too. If the biscuits do suit her tummy well and they are a complete diet (rather than a mixer) then you could use mostly that and reduce the home cooked to make your life a bit easier. Other diets that you might consider if you did want a change for any reason would be James Welbeloved or Chappie. They are both usually really well tollerated by sensitive tummy dogs. Any new foods though should be introduced gradaully.

Hi BG. Thanks again for your replies!

I have tried feeding my dog on just Bakers complete but she won't eat that on its own which is why I cook food for her too. That way she'll eat everything. Also whenever I have fed her just Bakers as her main meal she tends to get diarrhoea so I always give her bland food to go with it which seems to do the trick.

I know there are certain nutrients/vitamins etc that I can't provide in a home cooked diet which is why I always give her the Bakers too - I guess, in total, she has two good handfuls of Bakers a day which is probably just right for her bearing in mind I have to watch her weight too!

I don't know what's worse...kids or dogs!

Oh and re the diabetic dog....it appears that since the diabetes was diagnosed a week ago this has been the pattern since - ie very lethargic/not interested during the day but perks up in the evenings and wants to eat/go for walks and likes to follow everyone around.

We were wondering if the insulin could be divided up into two separate doses especially as the dog doesn't like to eat first thing in the morning, which is when the vet wanted the insulin giving but due to not eating she's not been able to inject it. Having said that we were concerned that if some insulin was given during the latter part of the day she may not sleep at night?

When I spoke to my friend earlier she sounded much happier - as compared to this morning when she really thought she was going to lose her/have her pts.

All this as a result of her taking her to the vet because she'd wet her bed for a few nights last week which was totally out of character for her - you'd never have thought it could turn out to be something so serious.

Unless the vet has advised to do so don't change the insulin dose at the moment. She should explain all this to the vet though and arrange for the glucose curve perhaps.

There are so many variables in sugar levels at different times that without monitoring that could be dangerous.

She was told yesterday and again this morning not to change the insulin level at the moment. It has already been increased since the dog started with the insulin a week ago.

I'm going to ring her again tomorrow just to see how things are going - she seems to appreciate someone to talk to on this because whilst her dh is lovely he's not very supportive/understanding when it comes to animals!

I know she's going to see how things go tomorrow - try and get the dog to eat so she can give the insulin as normal and get through the day with the intention of either speaking to the vet on Monday or taking the dog in to be checked again - and get a blood test done to be screened for pancreas problems.

Can I keep you posted on this? I really do value all your help and advice - even though this isn't my dog! Thank you BG - you've been a great help so far. I'm really very grateful. xx

I'll check by as and when I can in between working and kids! I usually get online at least in the evenings during the week though. You are very welcome for all the advice.

Hi BG.

The dog went back to the vet today. The vet didn't take a blood test because its a Bank Holiday tomorrow and she didn't want the blood to be sat in the post for longer than necessary (?) so the dog has got to go back on Wednesday so a result can be given the following day.

Anyway the dog has eaten its normal diet of sausages (she won't eat anything else) so that she can have her insulin. She's also had a few mouthfuls of dog food. She is still soaking her bed overnight which is now causing problems getting a wee sample first thing in the morning because she's obviously got an empty bladder so giving her insulin is now proving difficult.

My mate is going to carry on as she is with her at the moment until the blood test results are through - if they're aren't good I think she'll have the dog pts - if they're ok (and clear of Cancer) she will get some further help with diet and stabilising the diabetes.

I'll keep you posted!

Happy New Year to you. xx

The blood tests will not be able to show cancer specifically - what they will be looking for is raised levels of certain compounds produced by the pancreas that can indicate inflammation. That does not exclude or specifically diagnose cancer.

If the dog is still drinking high volumes of water (tell her to keep a water intake diary if she is not already) then that is a sign the diabetes is still uncontrolled (as in not sufficient insulin - vet will need to advise as to how much and when to increase the insulin) and so giving insulin at the recommended dosage is unlikely to be of any consequence. If the dog has not been having problems of low blood sugar on the current dose it is not likely to be a problem to inject the dog each day with it, even if a urine sample can not be checked. Just get one a bit later if she can and if it is negative for glucose make sure the dog is watched carefully for any signs of hypoglycaemia (low blood glucose) - if present feed the dog something sweet. We normally advise clients to go to the pharmacy and get some glucose powder to keep just in case. In the event of a low blood suger you can dip your finger in it and just rub it in the gums for the dog to lick if the dog is too weak to take it mixed in a bit of something else.

Thanks BG. That's interesting that the blood test they are due to do tomorrow can't screen specifically for cancer but only for abnormalities with the pancreas - I think she's been told it will come back with a definite yes/no answer re cancer.

The urine samples she's been taking, up until and including yesterday, have all been the same - no change - ie the level has been very high.

What she finds very odd is that the dog wants to go on her walks and whilst on the lead she really drags her feet yet when she lets her off she runs off and bounds around the fields. She has also noticed that her gait is different - ie she walks very differently with her back legs - she catches her claws whilst walking (as if she's not bringing her back paws up quick enough) and at times her back legs give out. This only started when she was diagnosed with the diabetes. Would there be a link there?

Yes it is possible. An overall weakness is possible (and the most likely) due to the glucose levels still not being under control, or there is a possibility of a rarer complication of diabetes known as diabetic neuropathy - basically the nerves dont sent the signals through properly. I have only seen once case of that happening though and in that case the dog in question went suddenly off her legs and did not improve at all and was put to sleep after a few days.

Is her vet measuring the blood glucose levels over a day at any point to see exactly how effective the insulin is? Even without the whole blood analysis machines they could do this easily if they get a diabetic blood test kit from Boots or another pharmacy and the sticks to go in it - or they can probably get it from their vet wholesaler. The dog sounds like it is still probably getting insufficient dosing of insulin and will need to have this increased but unless it is monitored properly they are not going to suceed very easily with it. I would change insulin doses after each 5-7 days but only after a monitoring session.

Maybe your friend should get a second opinion with another clinic????

Hi Beautifulgirls.

The diabetic dog has been back to the vets first thing this morning for an early blood test which is now going to be sent off and screened and we should know a bit more on Friday.

I think, tbh, my mate is giving up a little at the moment. The dog simply can't control her bladder and is constantly dribbling wee. She's only to sit in the hallway and she leaves a puddle. Overnight she soaks her bed.

And because the dog simply won't eat anything of any good other than sausages she is having real difficulty in controling the diabetes - vicious circle I guess - if she won't eat the prescription food and will only eat processed foods it has a knock on effect with her efforts with the insulin etc?

Awww poor dog.
My cat has diabetes and he wouldnt eat the vets food so ive just kept him on morrisons own.
The vet has the cat in for the day every few months to make sure hes having the right amount of insulin and its not been too much trouble at all.
Poor dog again

Hi charliecat. Yes it is very sad especially as she lost her other dog only a few months ago to a tumour up behind the eye.

She has had such a stressful Xmas and New Year - in and out of the vets including Xmas Day etc.

I have a 12yr old labx too and it makes me realise how lucky I am that she is fit and healthy and bounding around the garden chasing our JRT puppy. I've also got a 13yr old cat (almost 14yrs old) who is like a kitten!

Hiya, yes you dont realise how lucky you are till something like this happens.
My vet is very up on diabetes, though not so much so on other things....
the wee thing, the weeing is to get rid of...Oh i dont know, but the insulins meant to sort that? Weird..
And the sugary sausages? My cat stopped launching himself at the kids (suggary milk) breakast when he was on the right dose of insulin.

Yes these processed sausages have sugar in them but she won't eat anything else and the vet has been saying just let her eat what she wants because she has to eat something. What a worry.

Oh yeah, let her eat them, but im thinking she wants them or the sugar?

Yea but they've tried just about everything else including other food with sugar in - even the poshest dog food you can get - she simply won't eat anything else. But then again she's not had a terribly healthy diet through her 11yrs, from what I can gather - sausage rolls, pork pies, remnants of take-aways, pizza etc etc. Whilst the vet isn't blaming her diet for her newly diagnosed diabetes she is saying that a dog's diet can play a role in their health in their latter years.

Has the vet checked her for a urinary infection? Diabetics especially uncontrolled ones are very susceptible because the glucose in the urine is a great food for the bacteria. She will be more thirsty than usual until her diabetes is adequately controlled and so will wee a lot more anyway though. Could be one or both of these causing the "leakage". If the blood glucose is still high sounds like it is time the vet upped the insulin again really and maybe some antibiotics too. Additionally infection can actually affect the required doses of insulin too. Previously stable diabetics often are unstable when they have an infection of some sort and need to be monitored carefully, so it may be contributing to the problems in stabilising her???

Hi Beautifulgirls. That's very helpful. I will give my friend a ring this evening and let her know what you've written. I'll keep you posted! Thank you!

Hi Beautifulgirls.

Well the result of the blood test came back this afternoon. The dog does have a urinary infection and is now on anti-biotics.

She also has an inflammed pancreas which the anti-biotics should help with.

There was no clear indication from the blood test that there was anything sinister but they did say her white cell count was a bit low which may indicate kidney/liver problems but they also put that down to her old age.

My mate just wished they'd tested her for urinary infection before now - no wonder she's been so miserable etc. If she'd gone onto anti-biotics sooner perhaps by now she'd be eating better and the insulin would have had a better chance of helping and she'd be on her feet more?

Does all this make sense?

Yes it does make sense. Hopefully the antibiotics will help her feel better. The inflammed pancreas will be harder to deal with though. They could consider nil by mouth with her and iv nutrition instead for a few days to totally rest the pancreas if it is not settling soon.

Fingers crossed it all gets easier from here for her.