Newly diagnosed diabetes in a dog........help with diet please?

[whispywhisp]

A mate of mine has just had her lovely 11yo female mongrel diagnosed with diabetes. Fortunately she managed to get the dog to the vet quickly and is now injecting daily insulin which is helping, albeit slowly.

She has been told to feed the dog on a prescription only diet, available from the vet, which the dog won't eat.

Up until now the dog has eaten a mainly home cooked diet with dried dog biscuits put on top. She's been told the dog biscuits are not ideal because they contain sugar. She has also been told not to give the dog chicken or fish etc - yet the dog will happily eat a home cooked meal.

Has anyone got any advice on what can be fed to a dog with diabetes? Please? I find it hard to believe that there is sugar in chicken and fish!

I think that charliecat's cat has diabetes.

My ds has diabetes and has injections every day. It's bizarre that they've said to avoid fish and chicken. I don't know how the condition in dogs differs from in humans but basically my ds has to eat low GI foods which release energy slowly and avoid very sugary stuff.

I can't for the life of me see why a processed prescription diet would be good for a dog used to good home cooking.

I'd want a second opinion.

.

The prescription diets are controlled in carbohydrate levels and fibre to help control the sugar absorption. Home made diets are possible but you will need to talk to your vet about level of different things to add to ensure it fulfils the same role and ensure correct feeding amounts. There are several companies that make prescription diets though so if the one diet does not suit try asking for others to use instead perhaps?

Thanks beautifulgirls & mincepie.

The dog is a fussy eater anyway but when my mate cooks chicken or fish she'll eat that quite happily. I can see your point re the levels of carbohydrates etc but does cooking normal food (chicken and fish) hinder the diabetes?

Only in that they are mostly protein and so blood sugars are going to be less stable. Insulin mostly acts over a period of time, so it is important that the sugars are absorbed from the intestines over a period of time too, otherwise there is a risk of the blood sugars dipping too low. Eating something is better than eating nothing if insulin is being given though.

Has the vet given dried prescription diet or moist? If dried then a fair comprimise to start with at least would be home cooked with the prescription diet mixed. Perhaps in time a little less of the cooked could be added to gradually wean the dog across to the prescription food only. Also if tinned is available try warming this up before feeding as often they just like the warmth of home cooked diets.

Yep good idea - I've got to speak to my mate today anyway because the dog in question is due back at the vets this afternoon to have another blood test - I'll suggest to her that she try the dried prescription food with some home cooked and eventually wean her on to the prescription.

It's all happened so quickly - she noticed the dog was wetting her bed just a week ago which was becoming a regular nightly event - so she took her to the vets in case she had a bladder infection etc. They ran a urine sample and then a blood test and were shocked to see her glucose level was extremely high - supposed to be a ten? and it was 21. Anyway she had to take the dog back every day for further checks, including Xmas Day and yesterday and so far the dog appears slightly better - more with it but simply not eating.

The vet said that when you first see signs of a dog becoming diabetic it is quite often very advanced. What a worry.

Thank you for your advice - I'll let her know.

Can a dog's 'normal' diet be a factor in a dog developing diabetes? I've just found out that she's been feeding this mongrel, for the best part of her life (she's 11), a diet of pork pies, sausage rolls, the remnants of a take away, pizza, biscuits, etc etc as well as normal tinned dog food. Whilst she isn't that overweight she is overweight - ie she doesn't have much of a waist but does go on plenty of very long walks.

Sadly yes diet may well be a factor in it. Not always the case - in some pets it will just happen anyway, but as you say the dog is a bit overweight so that will have made the dog more susceptible to it. There are too many obese pets out there and too many owners totally unaware of the risks they are creating. It does not mean it will happen, but it does increase the probability that it could.

Glad to hear the vet is keeping a close eye on her though. Your friend needs to be prepared for plenty of visits back and forth to the vet until she gets onto a stable dose of insulin - until she gets the diet settled that may take a while, but her vet should try and help her through all this too.

Thanks BG. Yes she took the dog back today and whilst the glucose in her blood has come down the level in her urine is still quite high - does that make sense? The vet has also said it may take some weeks for the insulin to really kick in and he has started her on quite a low dose and will increase it if needs be, which I'm told he's done already.

The dog is ok and whilst no worse she isn't significantly better either. Its such a worry for her - and came on so quickly. I've got an elderly labrador x myself (she's 12) and its made me realise how important it is to keep a close eye on dogs and their behaviour although I realise diabetes can hit a dog of any age. My dog has always had a lean diet and I've been told to keep her slim (see ribs and good waist) because she is arthritic in her back legs and with a good diet and plenty of short walks she skips along!

I have a neighbour who is elderly and slightly senile and his dog, who is only 6-7yrs old, is absolutely huge - due to feeding him on human meals and biscuits etc. It's such a shame to see a dog so overweight but what can anyone do? I know the vet has tried to get the dog on a diet but with the owner not quite 'with it' he feeds the dog more than he should because he can't remember when he last fed him, iyswim!

We fight a losing battle with many owners about overweight pets. It is one of my "pet hates" (excuse the pun!) and I have heard all the excuses sadly. Too many people in denial who for some reason seem to think that my advice is wrong. Not surprising that some kids are allowed to get that way too if mothers take the same attitude with them
Thankfully there are a few owners who do listen, and more often than not their pets are the ones like yours who will benefit from keeping the diet in check. I too have an old arthritic labrador and she is certainly well regulated on her weight!

BG - do you give anything to help your lab with her arthritis?

I noticed my lab become stiff on her back legs back in the summer - she was walking oddly so took her to the vets and they said she was arthritic in her hips/back legs. So we started her on an anti-inflammatory called Metacam which has done the trick. I now buy it on prescription and it certainly helps....well, she is back to jumping for sticks and wants to run.

I also cook her food for her - dog food is all well and good but she does have a sensitive stomach so I cook her fish, chicken, rice, pasta, veg, eggs but I do give her a handful of dried dog food (Bakers) because I know there are certain ingredients/nutrients I can't provide in home cooked food. She also has a glucosamine chew which helps her joints.

I have a young JRT dog too - she's only about 9mths old - and she is fine with dried P.Chum but I do give her home cooked too.

I hate to see overweight dogs - it really does make me cross because it is so unavoidable - do the owners not realise their dog is overweight?

Even though my lab is arthritic she still enjoys her 2-3 short walks a day and I've been told it is essential she has these walks to keep her joints supple.

Shame though because when she was younger she'd walk across Dartmoor with us or do a coastal path somewhere - that would be too far for her now. I say she is in retirement now.

My lab has a food that has glucosamine in it already and she was on metacam for a while, but sadly for her she is sensitive to that particular type of drug (NSAIDs - gets severe stomach inflammation from them) and she was very very ill on metacam, so we had to stop it. I now manage her on opioid based pain relief only and she is doing ok considering how bad her elbow is really. Better than I imagined without the metacam actually. I am lucky she is still here really, but she is such a happy dog again after all that she went through.
As for exercise - yes little and often gentle exercise to keep the joints moving is good. Mine used to do miles and miles too, but mostly just has a little potter about nowadays, and occasionally gets a spurt of energy to have a bit of a run!

I had heard Metacam can cause stomach problems but, fortunately for us, it hasn't caused my dog any side effects so far and she's been on it now since August. She still gets a bit wobbly - depends on how much exercise she does - its hard to find the right balance because she is a dog that loves to go out and run after a ball but if she does that too much she can be stiff for a day or so afterwards. Being Lab x with a greyhound she naturally has the energetic nature! If I hadn't have got her onto Metacam together with the glucosamine I'm sure she'd really struggle. She has a good healthy appetite and loves her home cooked food mixed in with Bakers complete.

What do you feed your lab on BG?

Oh and re my mate with the diabetic dog. She found out today that the dog probably has pancreatic problems which has caused the diabetes - she is going back to the vet tomorrow. The dog has gone right off its food so they're having to feed it anything just to get it to eat. All very sad especially when you consider she appeared fit and well just a week ago.

The pancreas is what produces insulin so yes there will be a problem with it but perhaps however the dog has had pancreatitis and this is what they have been referring to today?? (inflammation) If that is the case the dog would usually be very sick and would probably be hospitalised for intravenous fluids with nothing by mouth until the inflammation settles, plus insulin and intravenous glucose to help control the diabetes in the mean time. Has she had pancreatitis in the past though? Diabetes can be a complication of pancreatitis, but it is not all that common in my experience. Pancreatitis certainly can be diet related so it makes it all the more important in the future that things stay stable in the feeding. Fats in the diet in particular can make pancreatitis flare up. Often we see recurrent cases in dogs that go off theiving food from the bin or the table etc. In between times with controlled diet they are usually pretty stable.

It sounds like your friend/friends dog is having a tough time with things right now. If it is pancreatitis and still active she should really push for them to hospitalise in my opinion.

Hi BG & thanks!

I do think the diet she has been feeding this lovely dog on has been a bit too much on the fatty side - I was shocked to hear she gives it a pork pie or sausage roll as a regular food plus take away remnants as well as normal dog food. If this is a cause of a the condition of the dog now I know the owner will be gutted.

Anyway yes the dog is going back to the vets this morning - when I spoke to her owner last night the dog had eaten one sausage - the vet told her to give it anything just to make her eat because she'd not eaten for two days. I read up about pancreatic inflammation on the internet last night and rung her to say she should get the vet to look at the pancreas - ultra-sounding it will show up whether or not it is in trouble and she said she'd push for that. The dog spent all day yesterday asleep which is very unlike her plus the night before she spent constantly licking her back end so I guess she'd have been in pain down there?

I know we're all different but I for one would never allow my dog to eat such rubbish especially as a regular meal and I would have got the dog into the vets as soon as I noticed something odd about her character - we all learn I guess.

Blood tests (amylase and lipase) should be able to detect inflammation of the pancreas - though do not identify why it has happened. Ultrasound may pick up more info perhaps in that respect but not always.
I have always treated pancreatic inflammation with nil by mouth - including water and using iv fluids and nutritional support until the inflammation settles - usually a few days on this protocol of treatment. It is also important that they dont even smell food in that time as the pancreas releases digestive enzymes that are basically self digesting the pancreas. Smelling/eating food triggers more to be released and activated and so the problem is recycled.

It may be better with your friend to give her the info about feeding as a maintenance of such problems rather than telling her that is probably the cause of it. She is most likely having a really hard time right now anyway. If she isn't listening after that then you still have the option to tell her it also caused it and add the guilt in if needs be - if you know what I mean.

Hope it is all going well for them today

i wouldn't expect that a normal run of the mill vet practice haz zomebody with the zkill zet to do a pancreatic ultrazound tbh.

Otherwize- what beautiful girlz zaid

hope doggy iz feeling better too

Crikey, it is confusing isn't it! What a subject. I'm no vet but don't you learn a lot when you have pets?

Ask me something about dogs with arthritis and I may know the answer but diabetes...what a subject!

I should find out later on today how she got on at the vets this morning. I saw my mate yesterday - she looked very drawn. She lost her other dog only a few weeks a go due to having a tumour just behind an eye which the vet didn't diagnose until too late. She's had a really tough time of it.

Blood tests have been done within the last week but due to Christmas and New Year they don't expect to get a result until next week. I asked her if they were testing for pancreatic troubles and she replied she didn't know so I suggested to her this morning that she find out, because if not they should take another sample today and get it sent off asap.

I know if the dog does have anything sinister in the pancreas she isn't going to continue - the dog is 11yrs old and she doesn't feel like she can deal with two major problems plus have a young family too.

What would you do BG?

That does sound pretty sensible really. I think your friend must look at all the aspects of this - dog's welfare, costs, time and emotions. They all have to be factors in making a decision here. One other option open to her is to ask for a referal, or to seek out a second opinion too if for any reason she is not totally confident in the vet she is with - or of course if they are saying they do not have the facilities/experience to deal with this sort of thing too (as oops said). Costs are likely to rise in that sort of circumstance, but if this is not the specific worry your friend has then may just help her make longer term decisions whichever way she chooses. There is probably no one right answer here in all of this as to what should be done really.

Hi BG & thanks again. You really do know you a lot don't you?!

Well she rang me this morning and left messageto ask me to look up the symptons again of an inflammed pancreas but when I rang her back she'd gone to bed - evidentally she'd been up all night with the dog because she was so restless. I spoke to her DH and he's going to get her to ring me back. I know she's very miserable (my friend!) and very depressed about the whole thing but I'm trying to help her with getting as much advice as possible.

Anyway whilst talking to her dh he told me that they managed to get the dog to eat a sausage this morning, which I agree is better than nothing, but with these heavily processed frozen sausages surely there is sugar added to them? So he went to have a look and sure enough they've got dextrose in them which is surely not going to help her blood glucose level?

Anyway whilst she has eaten evidentally its not enough to administer insulin (?) so she's gone without insulin for the last 48hrs (she didn't eat yesterday either) so all in all its a bit of a vicious circle.

My mate is such a lovely caring animal person - she will go to the ends of the earth to keep her animals well although, in hindsight, perhaps she's been too kind/generous with the food she's been feeding her dogs on? I don't know (again I'm no expert) but surely there are reasons why we shouldn't feed animals with human food - ie processed human food, whilst natural food or indeed proper animal food is best and perhaps all this is a contributing factor to her ill health now?

I will wait and see what she says to me when she rings later - and I'll be back here later no doubt! Thanks again BG - you've been such a great help - are you a Vet by any chance? xx

yep!

A little treat here and there for most of our pets will do no harm, but people think they are being nice and kind when they spoil them too much - these are the cases where things go too wrong. If people choose to avoid processed pet foods it is important that they know the nutritional needs and then offer a balanced home made diet, not just scraps and processed human junk!

Symptoms of pancreatitis - most usual one but not always present is vomiting. After that then abdominal pain is usually present and can be quite severe in some cases. If the dog is unsettled, not well with abdo pain then the vet should be testing the bloods if it hasn't already been done.

Have they looked for ketoacidosis? This is a later stage of diabetes being uncontrolled. They would test that most likely with a urine sample looking for ketones on a dipstick. Ketoacidotic patients are usually pretty poorly too. If that is the case again we would usually hospitalise the patient, get them onto a very short acting insulin (unlikely the one your friend has at home) and iv fluids etc, with a lot of blood glucose monitoring by the vet over 24hrs or more. Once the ketones are under control the patient will feel a lot better and then there is a much better basis for going ahead with home insulin treatments and diet etc.

Hi BG.

Yes they have tested for Ketones - and that came back ok.

I've spoken to her this afternoon. The dog not doing at all well. She goes out for a wee and her back legs are now giving way. She is becoming constipated which isn't helping. The vet has said just give her what she wants to eat so they've tried pretty much everything and the one thing she is eating is a sausage but one of these pre-cooked cocktail ones you can buy which are full of sugar. My mate is on her second vet - not by choice but that was the way the rota ran and the second vet she has is exceptionally good.

The dog is extremely lethargic. Doesn't want to get up, mooch about, and as I say isn't interested in eating. She is drinking tho. From what I've read on the internet and with your help too - I don't think she is showing the symptons of pancreatic problems - she hasn't been sick other than once a few days ago where she just sicked up a large amount of clear fluid. She doesn't have diarrhoea and doesn't appear to be in pain.

The blood tests that were taken the other day were simply for the diabetes so they are going to look at getting another one done asap to test for pancreatic inflammation.

However.....sadly my friend has told me that she doesn't think she will survive until Monday - she has said if she doesn't eat tonight or in the morning she is going to call the vet out and get some more advice or, if necessary, end the dog's suffering. All very sad.

Money isn't an issue with her, fortunately, but she feels you can only do so much for a dog of 11yrs old and I have to agree with her - and I told her to remember how the dog feels about all this and if she had a choice what would she choose?

Seeing you know so much..and on a slightly different subject....as you know I have a 12yr old labx - she is a lovely dog who is, as far as I know, in excellent health apart from arthritis in her hips and back legs which we keep under control/help with metacam and glucosamine.

Anyway she has always had a sensitive stomach with regards to processed dog food. As a result I have resorted to cooking her meals for her for the last few months and feed her the following:

Chicken or fish with a hard boiled egg, vegetables (all sorts inc greens), rice (normally brown), pasta (fresh!), plenty of water, a vitamin tablet from the vet, and a good handful of Bakers complete. She also has a handful of Bakers complete for breakfast with lots of water added in because she has never been a very good dog at drinking other than milk, which I've cut out to keep her weight down to help the arthritis, and she has a glucosamine chew and a couple of other chews at bedtime.

Is that good enough? She certainly looks really well, she loves to run, chase a ball, has a lovely glossy coat, is nice and slim (ie you can see her ribs which I've been told to maintain to help her joints) - is that ok? I have to add I don't feed her with human processed food - ie titbits - I never have because I don't see they help at all - and have even taught the kids to leave her alone when they eat and I don't give her leftovers.

Do her vets have their own blood testing machines? Many practices will have these and should be able to get results in a relatively short period of time if so. I think perhaps your friend should try another practice to get some answers if her surgery is not giving them. A dog who is as poorly as your friend suggests needs a lot more supportive care that she seems to be getting from her vet. iv fluids, finding out what is going on etc. Simple diabetes does not usually cause them to be like this. What out of hours arrangements do they have? Sometimes the set up for a dedicated out of hours only service will be much better than the day to day set up in a practice. It might be an idea for her to call this evening once she knows the practice is closed and go to the out of hours practice if it is not the same place. Some vets will do their own, others will use dedicated centres. If not try another vets from the yellow pages instead? I'm sorry that things are going so badly.