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What do we do?!?!

33 replies

ratfly · 02/08/2007 20:51

WE have had our dog1 for 12 years, since he was a pup. He has always hated the postie since one tormented him through the door years ago. He has bitten them on 2 occasions (with 2 near-misses), and regularly eats the mail.
In the 6 months since ds has been born, the following things have happened:
He destroyed his change-mat, which was left on the floor while we were out, probably when the postman came. (He does attack items near the door if he can't eat the post, but this wasnt near the door).
Since then he has been muzzled when I am on my own with him and ds.
Then, dh was in the garden when the postie came and dog1 was loose. Dog1 attacked postie, but dh got to him first and dog1 bit him (not hard, and also immediately realised his mistake).
Then today, I came back from visiting friends, and dog1 was unmuzzled when we were out. Dog2 got excited, as always, and tore around the house, with his bone. Dog1 attacked Dog2 and I had to literally kick him off twice. This is while I was carrying ds.

Dog1 has grown up round other people's children, and has never bitten them even under duress. He has never shown any aggressive tendencies towards ds. He is also extremely obedient in every way, except when it comes to the postie.
Dad has offered to take him, but he doesnt really want him. He has had dogs all of his life, and his died recently. Dh wants to keep him, but have him muzzled whenever ds is awake. This dog is an old family pet, and we love him dearly, but obv ds's safety comes first.
What do we do?!?!

OP posts:
beautifulgirls · 02/08/2007 21:59

DS come first - rehome the dog.

magnolia1 · 02/08/2007 22:03

He is 12 and probably getting a bit less tolerant which would explain the having a go at the other dog. The postie thing is a learned habit, how does he get the postie?

magnolia1 · 02/08/2007 22:04

sorry how does he get to the postie?

pinkyminky · 02/08/2007 22:16

I agree with beautifulgirls I'm afraid. we had to do it but it was the best thing for everyone. We used the rescue club for the breed of dog we had.He now lives the life of riley and I can invite friends with children to my house.

ratfly · 02/08/2007 22:20

He got to the postie when we were packing the car and he got out and the postie was out the front. We weren't vigilant enough.
another time we were in our front garden, dog saw the postie across the road and barked. Postie said 'come on then!' so dog obliged.

What about keeping them apart / keeping dog1 muzzled?

OP posts:
haychee · 02/08/2007 22:27

Let him go to your dad. That way you can still get to visit him and he (dog1) gets a better quality of life. He must be stressed to reacting so badly. It must be heartbreaking though for you as youve had him so long. If it doesnt work out with your Dad then you could rethink, but its got be worth a try. We use a muzzle for our pup to stop him chewing our entire house while we are out, and im sure your not supposed to leave a muzzle on a dog for much longer than a few hours at a time. Could be quite dangerous especially in the warmer weather and he cant get a drink.
Also, your ds is still quite young but he will be growing out of the need for so much daytime sleep probobly within the next 6-12months and he will be a toddler. Toddlers in my experience can be quite a handful on their own without you having to be concerned about the dog snapping at him. I know you said he had never shown any signs of aggression but, actually he has to the postie (a habit admittedly but aggression all the same) and uncharacteristically he has gone for dog2 aswell. Id be very wary of him and would feel very rest assurred if he went on to your dads at least for a trial period.
I feel for you, it must be awful to think your giving him up, but im sure he would be happier to grow old quietly. Maybe your dad would get used to having him around after a while? Its got to be worth a trail anyway.
Good luck!

pinkyminky · 02/08/2007 22:52

our dog was fine until my son got mobile. It's heartrending but we were glad we acted before things got dangerous. My dh really was against it at first but knows now it was the best thing.the floor needs to be a safe place for the baby. If your dad will have him for a bit he might grow attached, so it has to be worth a try. I really sympathise, rehoming our beloved dog was one of the hardest things we've ever done, but I think he needs to be happy too, and a muzzle won't make him happy.

ratfly · 03/08/2007 07:40

This is our plan:

We are going to get an outside box for the post. Then we can tape up the letterbox.

Dog is going to live with dad for 4 days to see how Dog2 reacts, and to see how dog1 is with him.

We are going to try him back. He can live upstairs while DS is up - we don't go upstairs much anyway, and we have a dog gate. We will see how he is with the post not coming in the door, as that is the major concern. It will also give him a different place in the pack, as he will get less attention etc.

Then, if we still have concerns, dog can go back to dads.

OP posts:
magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 07:47

Ok, just wanted to see if the postie was in your house or something. He is getting old and spending the rest of his years in a muzzle is not fair, going to be really honest here but you doing that is for your benefit enabling you to keep him and not really for his benefit at all. You have to do what is best for the dog and I agree that would be to rehome him

I have 2 dogs and I really feel for you but if I thought my children were at even the slightest risk I would not keep my dog(s)

magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 07:52

Sorry, that really won't give him a lower place in the pack, you will be giving him access to your areas and that will only make him higher.

You also run the risk of the dog not learning how to act around a toddler and if the unevitable happens and the dog gets downstairs while your son is running around but hasn't really been socialised with him then what??

Sorry but think ahead it's a recipe for disaster

I do agree about the post box but don't think you can in reality it's fair to keep your dog and son seperate especially when you will have another dog that is allowed to socialise with your son.

haychee · 03/08/2007 08:02

Poor dog. He wont like being secluded upstairs.
Im glad your going to give it a try at your dads. Surley he will have more space to roam around there?

ratfly · 03/08/2007 08:08

Hmmm. I think you are all right.
I think I am delaying the inevitable, as we don't really know how it will go round dads. He is a very attached dog, and pines when we are away..

OP posts:
haychee · 03/08/2007 08:12

It is sad. Id hate to have to go through it! But your child must be safe, its simply not an option to have the risk.

magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 08:31

If he is that attached puting him upstairs will be incredibley unfair to him
What breed is he?

ratfly · 03/08/2007 08:42

Actually, he likes to sit upstairs, and we were making him go downstairs. If it was up to him, he would live under the bed, or in the hall. Perhaps this is his way of keeping out of the way.
He is a mongrel.

OP posts:
ratfly · 03/08/2007 08:43

And he is little - about 10 kg.

OP posts:
PrettyCandles · 03/08/2007 08:46

Oh this is sad.

Sorry, but you can't make dog1 live upstairs, away from the family. It doesn't change his position in the pack - it isolates him, throws him out of the pack entirely. He will be distressed and will either pine or rip everything up. He will also become de-socialised (if that's a proper word) and not know how to interact with the rest of his pack.

I suspect he's too old to be trained again and learn how to behave safely. I do think that the best bet would be to give him to your dad. If that doesn't work then you m ay have to give him away entirely.

A dog cannot be kept away from his pack, nor can he live in a muzzle. Neither are fair. But your family's safety is paramount. What happens the day your ds is playing by the door when the post is delivered? Even if the box is taped up, dog1 will still hear the postie arriving and opening the outdoor box, and may well go charging barking to the door.

PrettyCandles · 03/08/2007 08:48

Hmm, cross-posted. If he likes it upstairs that may be alright (perhaps he is taking refuge), but you still have the problem that he flies off the handle at certain situations. The trouble with stairgates etc is that they're only as good as the last person to go through them.

wannaBe · 03/08/2007 08:49

Can I offer a slightly different take on this? To me it doesn?t sound as if your dog is aggressive, but that he is slightly dominant, and that he is wanting to protect the younger, and more vulnerable members of ?his? pack, i.e. your baby.

In dog society, the more dominant members of the pack will protect the young, and as this behaviour appears to have started since your baby was born this sounds like a plausible explanation to me.

I don?t actually think you need to rehome him immediately, but I do think there are steps you can take to try and iradicate this behaviour, and if these steps are not successful then rehoming is always an option.

Firstly, look at the way the dog is treated in the house. What areas of the house is he allowed? Is he allowed:

On the furniture?
Upstairs?
On the beds?

If the answer to any of these is ?yes? then you need firstly to stop him from going in any of these places. Allowing the dog to go on the furniture, upstairs, on any bed, puts him in the same hierarchical place in your pack as you, and he is therefore in a position to fight for dominance and will not submit to you as should be the case.

Secondly feeding. When and where are your dogs fed? Are they fed before or after you? If before, again this puts them in a more dominant place, because the more dominant members of the pack are the ones that get to eat first. This can be combated by either, making him wait until after you?ve eaten before he is fed, or if this isn?t possible due to timings etc, by you showing him you eat first, i.e. by eating a biscuit or something before you put the dogs? food down, so showing them that you eat first and are therefore higher in the pack than they are.

It?s possible he attacked the younger dog because he is more dominant than it, if he was there first then he had already established his place in his pack before it came along, and if it is not a dominant breed by nature then it might not have put up a huge fight for dominance.

Once you have re-established his, and your, places in the pack, you will be the more dominant one, and therefore the one that is charged with looking after the young, i.e. your baby.

As for the issue with the postee, if he?s teased the dogs before, then again he is seen as a threat, so taking away the threat, i.e. putting a postbox outside, will hopefully lessen the tention.

As he is such an old dog I really would try these things first before rehoming him. Give it a month, be very strict, and if there is no change then perhaps think again. But once you?ve started the changes these are things you need to keep in place to ensure he stays in his place in the pack.

Hth.

magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 08:50

Ok what about an animal behaviourist? Make sure its and adpt trained one.
www.apdt.co.uk/index2.htm this will show all those in your area. Not cheap but worth it if you can find a way to keep him.

magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 08:51

Agree wannabe which is why speaking to a trainer etc... could help hopefully

ratfly · 03/08/2007 08:56

Yes, you may be right wannabe.
He is dominant to dog2. I think he was putting him in his place, but that is not acceptable when ds is around.
He is always fed after us, but IS allowed upstairs etc, though he won't actually come on our bed. (Dog2 does though, and we often find him under the covers...)
He does act protectively towards ds, and also tries his best to keep out of his way. He has been raised around young kids, and always gets away when he has had enough.
I think letting dad have him over the weekend, to see how it goes, and to shake him up a bit.
Then establishing dominance as you say. A month sounds like a good trial time.
I think the major issue is that he thinks he is dominant to me. I have always been a softie with him, which was ok til ds came along. How do I make him submissive to me?
And also, upstairs is a refuge for him, so would it still be best to keep him downstairs only? (Our downstairs is open plan except the hall and small kitchen)

OP posts:
puffylovett · 03/08/2007 09:07

hi, i can sympathise, as were having issues with our needy spainel ar the mo ! the last thing you want to do is rehome or get rid when they're so much a part of the family, its so sad. however, agree that ds does come first but at least you're attempting to find a way around the situation, so good for you.

if you're going to stop him going upstairs and tht is his refugee, can you provide him with somewhere else to escape to ? what about a crate or cage into which your son can't get and where you can keep all his toys / bowls etc sohe knows it's his space alone ? i think they can be good as gold when lo's are babies, but its a different matter when they're mobile and if dog is protective and ds goes near his bowl...

one thing i have founbd really helped is to make sure pooch gets about 15 mins of play and ME time, i groom her and dp plays with her. she's been loads better. also have you reduced the amount of exercise since ds born ? this also affects them i think - my pooch goes ballistic when she sees the buggy or car seat now as she knows it means we're all going out, so she feels included. ds isn't mobile yet so i'm not counting chickens and would never trust her, but so far so good, she will tolerate him yanking her ears and just wants to lick him all the time !

think you've done the right thing with the post box, i hink we're going to have to do the same actually, what is it with dogs and posties !!!

magnolia1 · 03/08/2007 10:38

I think the main difficulty is going to be his age. 12 years of being dominant over you is a lot to change. Have you spoken to your vet? I really think for it to work you need advice from someone who really knows their stuff

fawkeoff · 03/08/2007 10:48

i think ur going to find it extremly difficult to re train a 12 yr old dog......the dog doesnt know that he should behave in a differant manner because u have had a baby.I know u must love him, but how is the dog going to be when ur baby is starting to toddle around??????, and the dog living upatairs during the day isnt really foolproof

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