I don't believe a dog can just 'turn'

[handlemecarefully]

...discussions prompted by the tragic death of a baby, and subsequent serious attack on a toddler by deranged rottweilers...

During these discussions some posters have suggested that any dog can 'just turn' and although previously placid could have the potential to savage you one day.

Well I could well be wrong, but frankly I don't buy this it all.

I believe (and I have no proof or evidence based research - just a gut feel) that there must be precursors to this sort of thing?

For instance my nephew was bitten by the family dog (not really severely thank goodness - albeit still needed stitches to his hand, but naturally my sister had it destroyed)...because my nephew had got to close to it's comfort zone whilst it was eating. Now my sister had been watchful of this dog for a little while, because it had latterly shown a tendency to growl and bare teeth when irritated etc. So the bite was not exactly a bolt from the blue!

I would suggest that dogs that go on to attack have previously show concerning behavioural traits that perhaps their owners have subconsciously chosen to ignore.

What do you think? (and it would be helpful if you could say whether you are a dog owner or have previously been one)

Oh and incidentally I would stake my life on the fact that my Bernese would never bite anyone whatever the circumstances...

I'm not so sure about my other dog however...

I think they can. A friend had a beautiful and gentle natured belgian shepherd bitch, she was lovely. However, she 'turned' suddenly and killed 2 dogs that were also belonged to my friend. I know they weren't human but it could have been. Very very sad and you could tell she was distressed at what she'd done. So she had to be put down. Poor friend.

I like dogs and have had them in the past but since dd, i'm sorry but I wouldn't have one or a cat tbh. Maybe when she's much older, who knows, but I doubt it.

i have owned dogs all my life as have all my family, and always HUGE dogs (including a rotty)

No i dont beleive a dog justturns and thinks "ooh i know im going t bite someone today"

There is always a trigger. my son has ASD and i am frequantly told that he has "flipped for no reason" what they actuallymean is that they can't SEE why he has had a meltdown..it doesnt mean there isnt one.

In actual fact in almost every occasion when they explain what happened and the events that led up i can pinpoint almost instantly what it was that casued his reaction.

Its the same as dogs, we may not be able to see staright away what casued the incident but i bet my last £ that there is one.

Take the baby incident. it was in a cot with two verylarge dogs that were kept as guard dogs. they probably weren't very well socialised and i doubt they were used to having children around.
A new object is left in your house and it starts squeaking, they go up to it it squeaks some more...so they play with it to make it make more squeaks....its just dogs playing with what they beleive is a toy, sadly we know now that it wasn't a toy at all it was a baby.

Are the dogs to blame though? we give them sqeaky toys one day and are happy to allow them toplay withit, the next day theyplay with a squeaky toy and they are put down.

As dogs get older, just like humans they become more niggly. the slightest thing seems to aggrevate them so yes they are more likely to nip or snarl at you, so you are carefull to watch young children around them as they do not understand that the dog needs its own space and just doesnt want to play.

i really do not beleieve dogs justturn for the sake of it, we just dont always necessarily know what has casued them to behave the way they do

I was bitten by a dog I had played with all day. I was trying to get in my cousin's room and he was leaning on the door so I leant on the other side and the dog leap from the hallway and bit me on the arm. He was obviously protecting my cousin from my "attack". So yes I do think dogs turn.

Don't like dogs any more for that reason and although I don't want my children to be scared of dogs I have made sure they are wary of dogs and they not to pet dogs that pass them in the street etc.

My mum had a dog and she looked after my two when they were babies but she never left the dog in the same room as the children EVER.

Tragic about the baby and the other child. Makes me very sad.

I would agree - usually you would be able to pick up signs that the dog is not comfortable - baring teeth and growling.

I think it is really up to the responsible adult to pick up the signs and remove dog or child from the situation before things get out of hand. Those cues are the things most young children will miss and then things can get nasty.

I frequently have to point out to my boys that they are upsetting the dog - she is giving the warning signs that she is getting frightened by their activity - but they are not noticing. They think they are playing - she does not understand what they are doing - my job is to reassure her, teach them - separate if necessary, and keep the peace.

She is not a dangerous dog - but any dog with young children is a potentially dangerous situation if not supervised properly. Particularly when dog and child are not known to each other - and the dog does not see the child as one of its pack.

I think they can.

When I was 13 I had a friend with a dog. Had known them for a few months. Dog always seemed fine, no problems. One day I walked into their living room, the dog saw me and attacked - no provocation. I hadn't even seen the dog when it jumped. It bit my ankle and I had scars for a few years after. It also went for their little girl the next day. The dog was put to sleep that following day.

surely dogs are intellignet enough to know the difference between a baby and a squeaky toy?
I do know someone who used to keep alsatians. She had three, one after another. All suddenly turned and bit before she gave up keeping dogs. She always said she had no prior wanring.

K- Bear. you just said that the dog was protecting your cousin so that measn that it hadn't "turned" it was doing what it thought wazs right.

It can happen
My dad had a gorgeous springer spaniel bitch Judy puppy, we had her for 10 years, she grew up with us
when my dad died we had to rehome her.
WE had a football match for one of my brothers uni matches at the park near to where she had bene rehomed, we visited (I had my 2 yr old son with me) she was gorgeous and went mad over us
In NZ dogs roam loose a LOT, dog attacks are very common, so Judy was out on the playing fields, scouting the rubbish bins, my ds was putting his empty crisp packet (pillory me for that later ) in the bin and she went for him big time, she got his shoulder and upper arm and got him to the ground.I managed to get her off but had to report her and she was destroyed as the owners could not guarantee she would never get out again.
this dog was brought up with us taking her food away when she was eating, she had been to full obedience and was a very well trained and loyal dog.
I have seen dogs turn, some with the most minute provocation, and also seen soem dogs take extreme provocation and never attack.

I don't like any dogs near my children, they are always loose in the park, charging and slobbering.

I had to tell one women to get her dog AWAY last weekend as it was pawing at dd2 in the buggy.

Cannot understand why anyone would want any pets tbh, especiaally if you have children, it's just another thing to look after and feed surely, who needs more work!

but piffle - surely in that case it was the dog reacting because of change that had happened - just as much as we don't like moving around and staying with new pepple (in general) neither do dogs.....

We get a lot of enjoyment out of our 2 Jack Russell pups.
I'm not sure I'd ever trust any dog 100% with very small children though.

it was 4 years later
it might not have been my ds, it could have been any kid putting something in the bin though.
Fact was dog I would have trusted implicitly turned

actually - some breeds seem to have mental problems as they get older. Eg alsations - my aunt had one that I had known for years - it was pretty old for an alsation - I was a teenager (we had had our own dog for years too so I was not inexperienced with dogs) - one day I did something (can't remember what) - and the alsation went for me - bit me - but not badly - I never told anyone .

But I later heard that alsatians are prone to going senile and I always assumed that was part of it.

Definitely there is usually a sequence of events that lead up to any attack - and the warning signs have been missed or ignored.

Rottweilers though, are known for just "turning" without the warning signals of growling etc.

I don't really think it matters if they just turn or if there are reasons for it which we may not pick up on. The fact that they turn, for a reason or not, is what's important.

My brother had a beautiful, floppy, mental weimaraner which was incredibly sweet and stupid and affectionate and would never hurt anything. One day when he came home from work, he found him in his bedroom with his mattress, chair and carpet just ripped up and the furniture all over the place and broken. The dog had simply flipped and gone mad and was lying there exhausted and sorry looking. If a human had been around at the time, I'm sure they'd have been bitten. There was no discernable reason for it. Now possibly there was a reason - perhaps he was a bit off-colour, perhaps something in the street happened to set him off, we'll never know, but tbh I don't really think it matters. My db just needed to be aware of the fact that this could happen and take appropriate precautions.

I think also with an owner present and in control verbally or physically, such events would happen so rarely.

Yes maybe piffle. I wonder if all these incidents of dogs attacking, are when the owners are not there, or when the owners are those who have inadequate control of the dogs?

My sister was about 4 and she was bitten by a Jack Russell she bent over to pet it and it bit her on the nose, she was okay but I think it affected me more than her as she now has 3 dogs and I don't like them. The first reason is I don't like the way they lick you etc, the second I am wary of them and really do not like big dogs and the third is just another hassle I don't want or need.

The incident with the baby, I just find it hard to believe why the parents left this baby in the same room as these dogs. I wouldn't dream of leaving my children at the age they are alone with a dog but a baby. I don't like dogs but in this circumstance I think the fault lies with the parent. At the end of the day these dogs were guard dogs and were there to protect the property - why leave your baby anywhere near them????

i thik that that is probably the case in 99% of these cases.

our next door neighbours had an alsation, who had "failed" police training due to aggression, he was then abused by his next owner a forces man who was away a lot.
Our neighbours got him - they have two sons 19 and 22 years old and Dad - so someone was there all the time to train, coax and nurture this dog in the hope of him being a decent pet.
Everytime I mowed my lawn or went outside this dog would leap frothing at the fence. We are on good terms with the neighbours and were confident the dog was always secured.

one day ambulance and the youngest son has had his arm nearly severed by the dog...
They knew the dog would bite and still could not prevent it.
It is sad, that in owning a breed which is more capable (either physically or mentally) of such an attack people seem to abdicate responsibility
Rotties make superb pets, given the right attention, execise and training and supervision.

the thing is if an irresponsible driver mows downa child we dont hear people calling for all of that brand of car to be banned do we?

its not fair that the bredd is blamed because there are some who choose to own a dog they do not understand and cannot/will not control.

if you are an inexperianecd dog owner then you dont go out and buy a breed that takes an awful lot more care and attention..and yes roties really do need a lot more training and guidance than a normal breed.
but then again so do many other breeds.

If you went to a cat breeder and you didnthave much time to actually do any practical pet ownership they wouldnt sell you a long haird cat...it just isnt sensible and its the same as owning a dog, there are some breeds that need extra care, be that from grooming or training or medication. if your not prepared to do that then you shouldnt have thatdog.

I absolutly think there should be dog licences and you should have topass an exam or something in order to obtain one.

Sometimes love and good intentions just arent enough

I think Piffle is right. Many people treat dogs like children - they are not children, they are dogs and have a different set of instincts and idea of society. If your dog is not absolutely 100% sure that you are top dog in his pack and the consequences for him will be dire if he misbehaves then there is a POTENTAL for problems. IME most dog owners nowadays are not truly in charge of their dogs.

The problem is, fattiemumma, that inexperienced people DO go out and buy breeds that need training and guidance. Rotties make fantastic pets as well as guards in the right hands. But a few idiots who go out and buy dogs that are completely unsuitable for their lifestyle, circumstances and personality sadly bring whole breeds into disrepute.

My little collie cross was also attacked by two massive great steaming, slobbering rottweillers. The owner didn't even attempt to get them off.

I'm a dog lover but I HATE rottweillers. They often have idiotic owners too, which doesn't help. Or they're raised to be nasty and violent guard dogs.

Dogs are animals with animal instincts which have been developed over thousands of years to hunt and kill etc, just because you take them into your home, give them squeaky toys and treat them like part of the family, doesn't mean these instincts have gone, they are always there under the surface, I believe it is in all dogs instinct to attack, just some dogs have a more instinctive urge.