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Original poster

I don't believe a dog can just 'turn'

49 replies

handlemecarefully · 27/09/2006 14:27

...discussions prompted by the tragic death of a baby, and subsequent serious attack on a toddler by deranged rottweilers...

During these discussions some posters have suggested that any dog can 'just turn' and although previously placid could have the potential to savage you one day.

Well I could well be wrong, but frankly I don't buy this it all.

I believe (and I have no proof or evidence based research - just a gut feel) that there must be precursors to this sort of thing?

For instance my nephew was bitten by the family dog (not really severely thank goodness - albeit still needed stitches to his hand, but naturally my sister had it destroyed)...because my nephew had got to close to it's comfort zone whilst it was eating. Now my sister had been watchful of this dog for a little while, because it had latterly shown a tendency to growl and bare teeth when irritated etc. So the bite was not exactly a bolt from the blue!

I would suggest that dogs that go on to attack have previously show concerning behavioural traits that perhaps their owners have subconsciously chosen to ignore.

What do you think? (and it would be helpful if you could say whether you are a dog owner or have previously been one)

Oh and incidentally I would stake my life on the fact that my Bernese would never bite anyone whatever the circumstances...

I'm not so sure about my other dog however...

OP posts:

Blu · 27/09/2006 15:41

I'm sure that, in the dogs mind, there is always a cause. the problem is that unless you are extremely experienced about dog psychology, and/or know a particular dog, the public at large, and children in particular, can't always knmow what is going to trigger a dog's response. So 'turn' without a trigger, no, but if it's you they're 'turning' on and you didn't expect it or deliberatley provoke them, it might feel a bit pedantic to argue the toss.

Blu · 27/09/2006 15:45

And unfortunately, the irresponsible people who choose to keep dogs seem to be drawn more to powerful breeds with a 'reputation'.

DontlookatmeImshy · 27/09/2006 15:46

But FM, a car doesn't have a mind of it's own -a dog does, and that is why no matter how responsible the owner, how well looked after, well trained the dog is, it is never 100% guaranteed that a dog won't turn.

Mellowma · 27/09/2006 15:48

Message withdrawn

Coolmama · 27/09/2006 17:34

no bad dogs
just bad owners

Chandra · 27/09/2006 17:45

There are so many things we don't know about dogs. One of mine gave a snap on the cheek to my SIL. Dog was obsesed with new squaky toy and SIL tried to give dog a kiss on the cheek while dog was playing with the toy. The dog had never done anything to make us think he will react like that, but deep in my mind I think that instinct kicked in, there was no way the dog could understand he was going to get a kiss on the cheek, I think in his doggy mind he thought my SIL was heading for his neck.

Chandra · 27/09/2006 17:46

Now, why my SIL thought it was a good idea to kiss a dog on its cheek I will never know...

hulababy · 27/09/2006 17:46

For my incident, the owners were sat int he same room, as was rest of family. I did literally walk through the living room door, dog was at other side of sofa, and it just looked up, jumped and bit.

Chandra · 27/09/2006 17:48

Hulababy! I was looking for you! (need help in choosing a Smart and you are the only person I "know" who has had one) Would you answer some questions if I start a new thread? pleeeasse

hulababy · 27/09/2006 17:50

Chandra - oif I can, I will!

Chandra · 27/09/2006 17:50

Thanks

Chandra · 27/09/2006 18:02

here (for Hula)

throckenholt · 28/09/2006 08:13

was talking this through with DH last night - he was inclined to the view that certain breeds are more dangerous inherently. I agree to some extent, but think much more it is down to the owners.

Some people pick breeds that are seen as agressive (eg rotties, alsations, bulldogs etc), somehow they think it enhances their street cred. And then they do not know how to handle the dog and don't act as the alpha male in the dogs pack - they encourage its agressiveness (maybe without even realising that's what they are doing) - the dog then thinks it is pack leader - and is more likely to attack "inferior" members of the pack - including children.

Maybe we should be more strict about anyone owning any dog - should have to have been to a course on dog psycology - then maybe all dogs and their owners would be better behaved.

Munz · 28/09/2006 08:32

I have a GSD and a staffie (apparently both breeds are 'status' symbols for us they're not, I have the sheppard cos I love the bred no other reason, (I grew up wiht my cousins sheppard dog who was soft as anything) and DH loves staffys so thta's why we have her. the very first thing we taught our two is not to bite. on the v v rare occasion i've been distracted for 30 secs and Joey has tried to grab at the dogs face, both of them do the exact same they do with me and DH - move their mouth/head out of the way and them get up and move away. (obviously I do then say good boy/girl to the dog and no to joey as this behaviour from him I don't want to encourage iycwim.)

however, we've ben having trouble wiht some dogs who jumped tyhe fence again yesterday (2 labs) I got mine in the house, and went back to the fence to say it's ok to the lady - dog jumped over and when I tried to grab him (the scruff) to lead him away from my garden, he turned around growled and bit my wrist not to mention v v scared. now I have a sheppard, had him for over 3 years, we play rough and tumble with him (not that he likes that anymore) - hell I even take food and toys out of his mouth (infact both our dogs mouths) but that lab - yesterday I was scared in my own garden not only for my sake but Joeys (thank god he was in the house with the dogs as well) not to mention if my GSD had got out of the kitchen he would have gone to town - so who then would be in the wrong? - my dog for defending 'his' property/his owner, or the other dog who jumped the fence, bit the owner of the house he was in, and then tried to run around the garden like he was boss?

so althou ppl say labs are good familiy pets - if u ask me i'd sooner have my two dogs than a lab any days around my son. It's mainly about how u raise the dog I feel. ooh and another thing - I wish bloody owners would clean up after thei dogs - yesterday I had a big poop outside the garden from who know's dog (def not mine as they're snobby and won't poop outside the garden )

I also feel that when we're out in the park we either stay well away from other ppl - ie familiies with children, and the dogs come on thier leads (if we're on a path then I vere them to the road, they sit down, I hold thier collors the perople pass and we carry on) - something I presonally feel is responsible - however we've also had occasions when ppl with children/prams can see a fmaily with 2 dogs a huge park and they follow us around - even when we turn around to walk back the other way around (and avoid the fmaily/children) they follow us that way - I mean it makes sence to go in opposite directions (least it does to me)

throckenholt · 28/09/2006 08:40

when I said some people pick breeds .....

I didn't mean all people who have those dogs have them for that reason, but those that do are often the ones that go on to have problem dogs.

Unfortunately owners of those breeds get lumped together by some. And also as you say labs are seen as safe dogs - but they are still big dogs who if not kept in control could be dangerous. It is almost entirely dependent on the attitude of the owner. Sometimes you do get "bad" dogs - but I think they are rare - and a good owner should be able to spot it and take appropriate action (including putting them down) when relevant.

Munz · 28/09/2006 08:57

sorry tr - i'm not having a go at you, it's just ppl make a generalisation (I know I just did with labs but the 3 i've met have all been the same) it just annoys me that cos we have a sheppared and a staff (notice sheppard not alsation! lol) ppl assume their vicious and horrible - but in trut we've got a staffy who as long as u give her a stroke will get on her back and show the world her glory, and a GSD who's all bark but no trousers - he runs away when the brush and hoover come out - not to mention they both run off to their beds when Joey crys.

(and as u say it's the people who have the breeds to fight them/treat them bad etc who give the rest of us who try our damndest to be respoinsible a bad name. - like my cousin - but that's a whole other thread)

Eulalia · 28/09/2006 09:01

We had a family dog when I was a child (cross Collie/Labrador). She was extremely placid and we had no trouble with her till the day she died aged 15 years... except once when she was tied up outside our local park and left alone for a few minutes. She wasn't used to be tied and felt vulnerable I suppose and she bit a boy not badly at all and he only needed a plaster. We were horrified but it was the only time and done out of self defence in her eyes.

I don't think you can expect dogs to follow human rules. They could turn under certain circumstances but obviously some are much worse than others due to their nature and breed.

throckenholt · 28/09/2006 09:07

Eulalia - I think collies are prone to that sort of thing more than others. They are intelligent dogs - and sometimes think too much about a situation - work themselves into a state and get frightened.

It is something to be aware of if you have a collie (we do). They are not necessarily an ideal family pet - particularly not if they are from working stock.

I guess it is the same arguement - dog owners should understand how their dog ticks -particularly things specific to their breed.

Munz - no problem - just wanted to point out I wasn't labelling all GSD owners (my original post could have been misread like that - sorry). I guess alsation was introduced during the war when GSD was politically incorrect ! I grew up with my grandparents having them and calling them alsations (in the 70's) - so that is what I tend to call them, and it is quicker to say too .

Munz · 28/09/2006 09:11

ah yes, blinking yanks! lol - they renamed them after bringing them back to the US from germany apparently! lol. (i'm just a snob! )

collies - as I understand are bouncey and need a lot of stimulation/runs etc? (our GSD tried to play with a collie when he was a pup! lol - was so amusing cos he tried his hardest to catch the ball but the collie alwasy got there first after goi n like a bull in a china shop! lol.

throckenholt · 28/09/2006 11:12

collies - as I understand are bouncey and need a lot of stimulation/runs etc?

They can be brilliant family pets but :

they are very intelligent and need to feel they have a job to do - that can be rounding up sheep, chasing a ball, guarding something,etc. If they get bored they can get destructive. If they get worried or frightened by something they can be difficult. Excercise is important - but you can never wear them out - they will take as much as you can give them - so really that isn't as important as the mental stimulation.

They can end up complete mental cases - eg ours is getting increasingly frightened of thunder and fireworks - she shakes like a leaf and tried to hide.

They are the most rehomed dog - because people see them doing clever stuff on tv and think they must be easy to train.

I guess each breed has its own characteristics - you should know what they are and understand them before you take one on.

thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat · 28/09/2006 11:17

haven't read any of the other posts - but imo growling is not a behavioural sign indicating future likelihood to attack in an unpredicatble way - if anything I would say it is often the opposite. A dog that growls is using it as a warning mechanism - it is in control of itself and is sending out a clear signal that it doesn't like something. avoid the something and the dog won't bite. keep doing it, despite warnings, at your peril. I feel reassured by a dog (like fil's lovely labrador) who is able to issue the odd gentle growl.you know where you are with a dog like that.

2labs · 28/09/2006 13:16

agree with that thewomanwhothought.

It always amazes me how parents let their children come running up to my lab x golden retrievers and fling their arms around them (I stop them - my dogs love kids and have never bitten but I feel the need to explain you should always ask the owner first, a lesson their parents should have taught them). And yet the same parents cross the road to avoid any breed with a 'reputation'.

The idea that labs are always friendly and rotties are always dodgy is imo very dangerous as it both lulls people into a false sense of security and causes panic. Judge the dog, not the breed. Labs are so popular in this country that breeding standards are often quite poor (the reason you should only support really top-notch breeders who show or work their dogs) and aggression is increasingly common. Very sad as obviously it is a breed I love.

IME a previously friendly dog may 'turn' - thyroid problems and brain tumours are two things that can cause it. There is always a reason, it's just that sometimes we'll never know what it was. Owning a dog is like a lot of things in life - a calculated risk, like driving. Both make life infinitely better for a lot of people, and you can minimise the risks hugely by things you do, but you can never totally remove the risk. I have a 7 wk old baby with my two large dogs. I also drive my baby around. Those are risks that I have thought about, tried to minimise, but decided they are worth taking.

mummymic · 02/10/2006 00:29

hello - just found this thread - please can i stick up for rotties - i have one and she was 6 when my dd arrived (my mum thought i would have problems as dog growled a few times as a very young puppy) she is now 8 and new ds arrived - my rottie is just fab with both of them - in the nineties (when there were many more attacks by devil dogs) there was indiscriminate breeding as rotties became a fashion accessory, this led to aggression and mental health problems in the breed, also rotties are natural guard dogs - inexperienced people have taught their odgs to guard and created an aggressive dog that they cannot control
the only time my dog has shown what could be perceived as aggression was when i was at a cash machine with my back to the street, 2 teenage boys came racing round a corner and my dog jumped up at them (no teeth or growling) imo she was protecting me
as for the attack on the baby last week - i dont believe that the dogs came from the roof, down the fire escape and through a room before ending up in the baby's room then took the baby back up to the roof and mauled it
i am not saying that some rotties arent aggressive, they have usually been brought up wrongly, the unfortunate thing is that if a rottie attacks they will make a mess - more people have been bitten by labs than rotties - but lab stories dont hit the headlines do they?

jabberwocky · 02/10/2006 00:35

I had a beautiful, sweet little Shih-Tzu. For 3 years she was the perfect pet. Then, practically overnight she started snapping at me. It got worse and worse. I took her to the vet thinking something physical must be wrong. Nothing there, he suggested obedience school. We went through the training, she did great, still no improvement in attitude. She could be sitting beside you on the couch, sweet as anything, and just turn and bite suddenly and with no warning. After ds was born we were lucky enough to find a new home for her.

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