Should universities give clearer information on degree career routes and prospects?

[LyndallMay]

Parents of university students or applicants, would you have wanted to know this before they chose their degree?
I have started a UK Parliament petition asking universities to give prospective students clearer information before they enrol or become financially committed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/776439
Require universities to explain degree career routes and job prospects
The petition asks for students to be told about the full career route connected with a degree, including what the degree does and does not qualify them to do, any further training, examinations, professional requirements, work experience, time and costs.
It also asks for clear and recent information about realistic graduate employment prospects, including where entry level roles may require previous experience.
This is not about guaranteeing anybody a job or discouraging people from university. It is about giving students the full picture while they still have a genuine choice about their degree and career route.
If you agree, I would be very grateful if you would sign and share it.
IMPORTANT: After signing, please check your email and click the confirmation link sent by UK Parliament. Otherwise your signature will not be recorded.

If a young person isn’t capable of doing this then they’ve no business going to university in the first place

Do you realise that universities would simply add the equivalent of a May Contain Nuts disclaimer to each course?

So for example of you want to be a lawyer, the university says ' if you want to be a lawyer this degree is only half your training and you will have to do x,y,z afterwards' ? I think rather than putting this on Universities we need to he looking at better careers advice and signposting in schools. Sticking them in front of a computer and telling them to fill in one of the many online surveys/forms/ careers websites etc would tell them what a certain degree leads to or what you need to do afterwards. It does seem like a waste of time, whether or not the petitions people have approved it ( most of the petitions they approve are a waste of time)

I understand your point, but the petition is not asking universities to provide a rigid career map or predict exactly what job every graduate will eventually do.
It is about giving prospective students a clearer picture of the route before they commit. That includes what the degree does and does not qualify them to do, any further training, examinations, professional requirements or work experience, and realistic information about graduate employment prospects.

It also matters that students understand the reality of entering the job market. There may be many graduates applying for the same vacancies, and some roles described as entry level may still require previous experience. That does not mean people should be discouraged from university. It means they should understand the position before making such a major commitment.

Some of this information may already exist, but it can be scattered across prospectuses, different university webpages, careers information, professional bodies and other sources. A prospective student should not have to piece together the full career route from information spread across numerous places, particularly when they may not even know what questions they need to ask.

The petition is not asking universities to guarantee an outcome. It is asking for the important information to be made clearer before enrolment, while the student still has a genuine choice.

“There can also be a real emotional impact when graduates begin applying for work and discover that roles described as entry level may still require previous experience, further qualifications or other steps they had not fully understood before starting the degree.”

When my dc was choosing his a-levels, he was advised to work backwards. Therefore, consider what career he thought he’d like to do, and then work out what he needed to do to get there. So, he was effectively doing this research in year 11!

Maybe what op proposes should be suggested in year 8 or 9, so students research future careers before they pick their GCSE’s, or even schools should provide this information. Ie, if you’d won’t be able to become a history professor without studying history gcse.

It sounds like someone has not done their research, embarked on an expensive course and then realised they needed to do further study and is annoyed they weren't explicitly told. Students really need to do the research first, I don't think anyone on this thread thinks otherwise. Yes, careers advice probably needs to be better, especially for students who are first in their family to go to university, but the internet makes things relatively easy. If a student can't research, they will find uni tricky.

Students should absolutely do their own research, but that assumes the information is easy to find, complete and available before they enrol.

How is a prospective student supposed to research something they do not yet know they need to look for? Information can be spread across prospectuses, different university webpages, professional bodies, careers information and other sources. Some information may only become available once a student has enrolled and gained access to university systems or internal materials.

There are also many universities and many different courses, so there is no single standard place where a prospective student can see the full career route and all the further requirements in one clear picture.

That is exactly why I started the petition. It is not about removing the student’s responsibility to research. It is about making sure the important information is presented clearly before they commit their time and money, while they still have a genuine choice.

That includes what the degree does and does not qualify them to do, any further training, examinations, professional requirements or work experience, and realistic information about graduate employment prospects.

I'll say again, the university does not know what job prospects there will be, or what additional training a professional body might require, by the time a prospective student finishes his/her degree.

To use a pp's example, someone who wants to be a barrister who can't find out for themselves what that entails, probably isn't cut out to be a barrister.

even schools should provide this information. Ie, if you’d won’t be able to become a history professor without studying history gcse.

Surely even a 14 yo can work that out for themselves!

Here you go OP.
All in one place ( I've used solicitor as an example of a vocational degree, although most law grads don't become lawyers. It's well known to be extremely competitive yet it is still an extremely popular course)

Unfortunately universities aren't crystal balls. They don't know what the jobs market is going to be like in 3 years time. They don't know what most degrees lead to. They do have statistics for graduate employment and where their students end up. The bang on about it all the time on open days. If YP can't be bothered to even do the basic 2 second Google I just did they are not going to cope at University where they are left to their own devices for long periods doing their own research!

The difficulty with simply saying “students should research” is that research only works if people know what they need to look for and where to find it.
Information can be spread across a prospectus, different university webpages, careers information, professional bodies and other websites. Some information may not become obvious until after a student has enrolled, gained access to university systems or spoken to careers staff.

There are also many different universities and courses. How is a prospective student supposed to know exactly which pieces of information they need to find, particularly if they do not yet know that additional requirements even exist?
Take law as an example. Someone may choose a law degree because they want to become a solicitor, but the degree on its own does not qualify them as a solicitor. There are further stages, including SQE1, SQE2, qualifying work experience and the other requirements for admission.

Those additional stages involve further examinations, time, experience and additional costs. Someone who wants to become a solicitor should understand that full route before committing to the degree, including what still has to be completed afterwards and what that may cost.

A law degree itself can of course lead to different types of work, and not everybody studying law wants to become a solicitor. But if becoming a solicitor is presented as a career destination, prospective students should be clearly told what is actually required to reach that destination.
They should not finish the degree believing that they are already professionally qualified when significant further stages remain. Nor should they have to discover afterwards that certain legal activities are reserved to appropriately authorised professionals.

That is the point of my petition. It is not about telling students not to go to university, and it is not about removing their responsibility to research. It is about making sure the important information is brought together clearly before they commit years of their lives and significant money, while they still have a genuine choice.

There are datasets out there with this info. You can look at graduate outcomes data by university on the HESA (higher education statistics agency) website. There’s also the Longitudinal Education Outcomes (LEO) that links higher education records with tax and employment data to track graduate earnings and career paths.

But as already mentioned upthread, this data is not the be all and end all. Many university courses are not a guaranteed passport to a particular career or income bracket. They’re a step on a journey which could move on to a variety of destinations.

And also, you need to take data comparing universities with a very big pinch of salt. Factors like someone’s prior educational achievement, their background and family connections, and the region they choose to work in, will hugely impact an individual’s earnings.

The mistake you’re making is assuming that all degrees are training you to do a job. They aren’t.

A student HAS to plan their own detailed career route because there isn’t a standard career route for each degree ( or job for that matter!).

I am not suggesting that universities provide no information at all, and I am not asking them to predict what every individual graduate will eventually do.

There are already requirements around information about the course itself, and universities also publish graduate outcome information. My concern is what prospective students are given clearly before they enrol and become financially committed.

The fact that information exists somewhere does not necessarily mean the full picture is presented clearly at the point when the decision is being made. Information about the degree, professional requirements, further qualifications, work experience, costs and employment prospects can sit in different places and may involve different organisations.

The petition is asking for the known career route and clear, recent employment information to be brought together more clearly before commitment. It is not asking a university to guarantee somebody a job or predict exactly what the labour market will look like years later.

There is an important difference between saying “this information exists somewhere” and making sure a prospective student is actually given the important information while they still have a genuine choice.

Thank you for the link. But I think it actually illustrates part of the point I am making.
That is a National Careers Service page about becoming a solicitor. It is a separate external source. It is not the information being presented alongside a particular university degree before a student commits to that course.

A prospective student still needs to know that they should search for becoming a solicitor, understand that the degree itself is not the complete qualification route, identify the additional stages and then establish the further time, experience and costs involved.

I am not suggesting universities are crystal balls. The petition does not ask them to predict what the jobs market will be like in three years, guarantee employment or find somebody a job.

It asks for clear and recent information about employment prospects and for known further requirements to be explained before enrolment, so that prospective students have a clearer picture before they begin that journey.
Students should absolutely research further. My point is that they should begin that research with a clear understanding of the route, rather than having to discover after committing that there were additional stages, costs or requirements they did not know they needed to investigate.

That is the difference I am trying to highlight. It is not about removing personal responsibility. It is about giving people clearer information before they commit years of their lives and significant money, while they still have a genuine choice.

There are already requirements around information about the course itself, and universities also publish graduate outcome information. My concern is what prospective students are given clearly before they enrol and become financially committed.

The information is widely available.

The fact that information exists somewhere does not necessarily mean the full picture is presented clearly at the point when the decision is being made.

Yes it is.

Information about the degree, professional requirements, further qualifications, work experience, costs and employment prospects can sit in different places and may involve different organisations.
The petition is asking for the known career route and clear, recent employment information to be brought together more clearly before commitment. It is not asking a university to guarantee somebody a job or predict exactly what the labour market will look like years later.

That’s exactly what you’re asking. You’re assuming individual degrees are training graduates for a specific career route. They aren’t.

There is an important difference between saying “this information exists somewhere” and making sure a prospective student is actually given the important information while they still have a genuine choice.

Newsflash, students are signposted to all the relevant information which is all easily accessible. Most don’t read it - I know this from professional experience and my PhD research.

I agree with much of what you are saying here.
Datasets such as graduate outcomes and LEO can provide useful information, but they cannot predict what will happen to an individual student and they need to be understood in context.

That is why the petition asks for clear and recent information about graduate employment prospects rather than any guarantee about a future career or salary.

I also agree that many degrees can lead to a wide range of destinations. The petition is not asking universities to prescribe one career path or predict exactly what every graduate will eventually do. Where a student is considering a particular professional route, however, the known further requirements, qualifications, examinations, experience, time and costs should be clear before they commit.

For broader degrees, realistic graduate outcome information can still help prospective students understand what previous graduates have gone on to do and what the employment picture has actually been.
For me, the important point is that a prospective student should at least know where they stand before committing years of their life and significant money to a degree.

With other major commitments, people expect the important terms and conditions to be made clear before they agree. They may still carry out their own research, but they are not normally expected to discover fundamental parts of the commitment only afterwards.

I am not asking universities to find students employment, provide them with a job or guarantee that they will get one. That is not what the petition is asking for.
Universities already produce detailed prospectuses and extensive course information for prospective students. If they can explain the course, modules, fees and study requirements, why can there not also be a clear section explaining the known career route where relevant, what the degree does and does not qualify someone to do, any further qualifications or experience that may be required, and realistic graduate employment information?

I am not expecting universities to provide every possible piece of information or predict the future. The important information that is already known could simply be brought together more clearly in one place, or clearly signposted from the course information, so that the student has a better idea of what they are going into before they enrol and become financially committed.

Students should still research further and make their own decisions. The point is that they should be starting that research with a clear picture of the known route, rather than trying to piece it together from different places or discovering important parts only after the commitment has already been made.

That is really what the petition is about: giving people the best available information before they make the decision, while they still have a genuine choice.

But as we are on the Law example, it has been the case forever that in order to qualify as a lawyer you need something more than just rock up with a law degree and ask for £100k. Every law degree requires the same additions to be a lawyer. We have different types of lawyer for a atart. Do people who want to go onto Law ( one of the most competitive degrees) really think they can do this with no further training? You can even be a lawyer without a law degree. Individual Universities saying ' you need to do additional study in order to be a lawyer is pointless. There needs to be ( and is) a central bank of information that tells you the information required for all qualifying law degrees. Really if halfway through your law degree you have only just realised you need to do the SQE and a training contract, then you need to be rethinking your career choices, because Law won't be for you. It's not the job of Universities, and it's not difficult information to find. At all. Why do you think the information is hidden away somewhere that no one can access? You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and if it does then it's a useful sifting mechanism for those who should not be on a University course at all.

I think we are talking past each other slightly.
I am not assuming that every degree trains somebody for one specific career, and the petition does not ask universities to map out every possible job a graduate might eventually do.

Many degrees can lead in numerous directions. I fully accept that.
What I am asking is that, where there are known further requirements connected with a particular professional route, those requirements are made clear before the student commits. Alongside that, prospective students should be given clear and recent information about graduate employment outcomes and the reality of entering the job market.

If information is already widely available and students are already being signposted to it, then bringing the most important points together clearly before enrolment should not be an unreasonable request.
You say that many students do not read the information they are given. That may well be true, but that is a different issue. A student choosing not to read clear information is not the same as important information being spread across different sources or not being brought clearly to their attention before commitment.

I am not asking universities to find students jobs, guarantee employment or predict one individual’s future career. I am asking for prospective students to be given a clearer picture of what is known before they commit years of their lives and significant money.

Universities already provide substantial prospectuses and course information. My view is that the known further requirements and realistic employment information can also be made clear and accessible at that stage.
Students would still be responsible for reading it, researching further and making their own decision. The petition is about making sure they have the information available to make that decision while they still have a genuine choice.

That’s because a university can’t provide that information alongside the degree information. The course information pages would literally be thousands of pages because there are hundreds of career opportunities post graduation.
If someone wants to be a solicitor they need to look at the various routes into that career. That could involve a number of different training route and degree options.
Having that information sit in on an external and impartial website is the most appropriate way of presenting that information.

Universities also have to be very careful about what they promise. They can’t guarantee entry into a sector or job so have to provide factual information on their degree content and graduate employability statistics.

You want one single info source? Here you go: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/

It exists. It has existed for at least 20 years.

I agree that many degrees can lead to a wide range of careers. The petition is not asking universities to map out one fixed route.

My point is simply that the important information already known, including further requirements where relevant and realistic graduate outcomes, should be made clearer before a student commits.

Information existing somewhere in the public domain is not quite the same as it being brought together clearly at the point of decision.

It partially is the unis’ responsibility - WHICH IS WHY WE DO IT.

OP why the fuck would you start a petition to ask for something that already exists? If your young person has done this may I suggest they work on their basic research skills. Learning to use Google would be a good start.

But why is this specifically the responsibility of universities to provide this information? Why not the schools who are giving their pupils career advice prior to them selecting a degree course?

But given this information is available, if all universities had a link to that NCS site would that be enough for you? Or do you want universities to spend even more time/money on admin rather than the teaching and research they're actually there for so they can reproduce the data that's already available?

Universities already provide substantial prospectuses and course information. My view is that the known further requirements and realistic employment information can also be made clear and accessible at that stage.
Students would still be responsible for reading it, researching further and making their own decision. The petition is about making sure they have the information available to make that decision while they still have a genuine choice.

You just aren’t getting it.
What further requirements should a university give information on when a graduate from each of their degrees could go in 100’s of directions?

For example, in my department I’m responsible for 15 undergraduate degree programmes and 5 post graduate programmes. Every year our graduates go on to work in a wide range of sectors including education, civil service, marketing, law and research. What further requirements am I supposed to be providing them? When most of my students arrive without a clear career plan.