Should universities give clearer information on degree career routes and prospects?

[LyndallMay]

Parents of university students or applicants, would you have wanted to know this before they chose their degree?
I have started a UK Parliament petition asking universities to give prospective students clearer information before they enrol or become financially committed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/776439
Require universities to explain degree career routes and job prospects
The petition asks for students to be told about the full career route connected with a degree, including what the degree does and does not qualify them to do, any further training, examinations, professional requirements, work experience, time and costs.
It also asks for clear and recent information about realistic graduate employment prospects, including where entry level roles may require previous experience.
This is not about guaranteeing anybody a job or discouraging people from university. It is about giving students the full picture while they still have a genuine choice about their degree and career route.
If you agree, I would be very grateful if you would sign and share it.
IMPORTANT: After signing, please check your email and click the confirmation link sent by UK Parliament. Otherwise your signature will not be recorded.

oh and when she started there were quite a lot of jobs. Now there’s hardly anything. It’s shit but it’s not the university’s fault and couldn’t have been predicted.

It's very shit, DS has just graduated with a 1st from Bath, had a few interviews but nothing so far.
Anyway this on the uni of Bedfordshire page is a bit sly

The petition is not only about the degree itself. It is also about what comes afterwards, including the reality of trying to enter the relevant profession or job market.

I am trying to envision how this information would realistically be collected and made available and in my opinion, you are asking for the impossible.

That can involve further requirements, experience, additional costs and the practical difficulty of actually getting into the work.

First, because the labour market is changing all the time. Completely outside of a university’s control. No one knows what wider global economic or political events will happen to impact the labour market. Let’s think about covid, Brexit, Russia Ukraine war, Trump bombing Iran, the development of generative AI. All of those outside a university’s control but you’re asking them to detail the practical difficultly of actually getting into work? That changes year to year.

Second, there are 100’s of degree courses being offered by any single university and you expect them to be able to provide all of this information for each course? Plus, see the first point.

Third, realistic employment information sounds as if you mean what are the realistic chances of getting a graduate job post degree, but job prospects do not come from just the degree itself, but instead multiple variables including the students degree classification, the university itself (a huge difference applying for jobs with Cambridge or Imperial as the degree provider vs a low ranked university), what the individual student did during their degree, what extra curricular activities and roles they undertook, what internships they applied for, etc etc. How does a university calculate job prospects on that basis?

The petition is about the university as an institution providing clearer information before enrolment about what a degree does and does not qualify someone to do, any known further requirements, and realistic employment information

Plus, what @HelenaWilson said… any one course has the potential to lead to 100’s of different career paths or none at all. It is very difficult to predict labour market needs. Oddly, the impact of GenAI/AI is leading many employers to seek more Humanities degree students and suddenly computer science or maths is no longer the safest route into a financial career. That’s unexpected.

I’m assuming that you’re either a disappointed parent or disappointed graduate with debt and struggling to get a job and now angry at your university? I fully sympathise but there’s never been a guarantee of a job that comes with the diploma. And what you’re asking for, beyond what many universities already do (collect job and salary data on their graduates one year after graduating) I cannot see as feasible.

I would argue that law is one career where anyone contemplating it should be aware that there's a pronounced hierarchy of chambers and firms, and a very distinct hierarchy within the pipeline of universities and second level schools from which firms and chambers in the higher echelons employ prospects.

It's one career where who you know, where you come from/ social capital, and your own personal charisma/ ambition really matter. This should be easy to understand from general reading, watching TV, and from specific research.

Indeed. And the university sector is obviously so awash with spare money at the moment so all unis can employ a team of people to map these routes out, update them over time, ensure the info is accurate etc.

Ultimately the OP didn’t want to engage in any discussions with people who disagreed or challenged her. She says as much in the second thread she’s started.

I suspect this is very personal to her which is why she’s unable to see the bigger picture.

This is the trouble.

Obviously her or her child has done a degree not realising it wouldn’t lead to a certain outcome and now wants some sort of justice.

She’s too emotionally involved to think logically.

It’s a shame because if she was just honest, posters who’ve been in a similar situation would probably be able to help.
I don’t know of any degree that doesn’t lead on to the chosen career path.

She mentioned a solicitor - yes an undergraduate degree won’t immediately result in being a qualified solicitor but you need the undergraduate degree to be able to go on to be a solicitor.

I can’t think how she feels she was ‘mis-sold’ a degree.
If she genuinely was then I think everyone needs to know about it.

If someone is expected to choose a degree because they want to enter a particular profession or type of work, then surely they should be told before they enrol what that degree does and does not qualify them to do, what further qualifications, examinations, experience, time or costs may be required afterwards, and what the realistic employment picture is.
I really don't understand why you think that this is a University's task. If somebody needs to know "* *what further qualifications, examinations, experience, time or costs may be required afterwards" then go and ask the person/body doing the requiring (hint: it's not the University).

Imagine the legal minefield if a University is required to spell out entry requirements to every/all professions. As others have said, they would just signpost to the professional bodies themselves. No way would I get involved in other bodies' jurisdiction!
Edit: and let's not forget that Universities have many overseas students. Are the Universities meant to be up to speed on every profession in every country in the world?

I thought this too. Perhaps the OP or someone close to them feels let down.

But I’m not sure what “clear” is to the OP - ironically, their “clear” is very vague!

Let’s say the OP wants a web page on what career a degree leads to. How could you have, for example, a university web page for every single career a humanities (or law or science) degree could lead to? Then add all the extra qualifications one could do afterwards to qualify for further positions? That would be thousands and thousands of roles. It’s just not practical!

I’d add a couple of further thoughts for you to consider. And I do think you have to engage in comments that don’t support you to sustain your own viable position. This is precisely what university courses seek to offer- critical thinking skills. This is why degrees can lead to a whole myriad of possible jobs. It depends entirely on the student and their strengths/interests/motivations/personal circumstances and more.
My other point is that of effort. Part of growing up is using your autonomy to look into things, make choices and then explore things further and make further choices. Challenges, bumps in the road and wrong turns are to be expected. I think that is just life. This need to have an answer given to you all the time rather than develop your own independent thinking are exactly what university education is not about.
And just one final point. The school and university sectors are in crisis. I’d suggest you campaign for more government funding into education.

I did the same- I did a Law degree, but I did want to go into Law when I applied. I did a summer in a Law firm. didn't really like it and also a Magistrates court which I loved, chose a career path ( Magistrates court clerk) that was closed off to me almost as soon as I started there- and meant I then had to qualify as a solicitor or a barrister before going to do what I wanted to do in the first place that used to have a direct work based route that I would have been paid to do, and decided I couldn't be bothered to do it so changed direction completely out of Law (more or less, although I still use the skills I learnt during the degree.) Should I sue the University because the law changed after I got my degree so I had to change career path? I knew full well what steps I had to take 35 years ago in order to go into law but I changed my career path 3 times before I was 25. Universities don't have crystal balls. FWIW I would say that I absolutely loved studying Law and would do it again even though I'm not a lawyer and the transferable skills are huge. I did an LLM just for the hell of it years later.

I’m sorry, Dd was lucky, had one interview and got a part one job. She’s now back at uni doing her part two. God knows if she’ll get a part 2 job though. I’m hoping now she has experience it’ll be easier. Lots of her previous part one course mates never got jobs.

Apparently they should also be in the prospectus too!!
can you imagine the size and the cost!

OP, I’ve read all your extremely repetitive and vague replies, and I’m absolutely boggled.

What are you talking about?? It sounds like you want some mystery information about a “full career route” - a term you won’t fully explain - specifically spoon fed to you (and students) in exactly the way you want it … even though you admit that that information is already out there, and in any case there isn’t one single “career route” from most degrees.

Surely you can see that this is just vague and pointless nonsense?

If you can’t make yourself any clearer, I’m afraid that you might be the problem here!

Honestly. It boggles the mind. I’m finding it quite unbelievable how much the OP clearly does not know, and how they think it’s everyone else’s responsibility to read their mind and dish them up exactly what they didn’t know they wanted.

This is the AI age, everyone: nobody wants to think, everyone wants all the answers NOW, although they not really sure what they want to know.

I think it’s so personal for the OP that she’s unable to view the issue objectively.

If she thinks she’s been mis-sold a degree there are ways in which she could pursue that legally. However, if the university has provided all of the relevant information pertaining to the degree and not promised a specific career then the issue lies with the OP.
My experience is that universities err on the side of caution to ensure they don’t find themselves getting into trouble!

@mathanxiety Not who you know. That’s largely gone in the context I think you are suggesting. However dc need to get into chambers and firms via their work experience schemes. It’s not a matter of who you know these days because recruitment policies don’t allow that.

Could you please explain what you mean for the following 2 examples:

1. A student studies PPE at Oxford. There is no known route after a PPE degree to anything. One hypothetical student joins the NHS for a year, then uses their earnings for an MA, then works as a consultant in a niche area, then starts a geography PGCE. Which of these "routes" should Oxford include in their prospectus for PPE under your petition?

2. A classroom full of students studying for their CIMA accountancy exams includes graduates in history, chemistry, maths, accounting & finance, classics, law, MFL and theatre with circus skills. (I have taught this mix) Would each of these degree courses need to list the requirements for CIMA or would a more generic catch all for accountancy in general be permitted?

This isn't going to happen because the truth is that a non vocational degree does very little for your employment prospects.

Also a lot of people won't listen even if given the information.

Out of the young people I know who are going to university or recent graduates. None of this seems to be a consideration even when they've been asked what they're going to do with it.

Colleagues daughter did a history / philosophy degree. She's working in a pub as she can't get a job. She responds to this by throwing good money after bad and doing an MA in history and philosophy. So she already can't get a job with her undergrad degree and she chooses the same subjects with no defined career path at MA and thinks she'll have different results.

It isn't just youngsters. If you head over to the mature study and re training section, I looked at it out of interest and saw a few historic posts with people asking if they should re train in law considerably later in life and with not necessarily good qualifications - qualified lawyers who know what they're talking about, give honest feedback and the person remains convinced they can be a lawyer and that the competitiveness won't apply to them somehow.

Another colleague's daughter did a degree with no defined career path afterwards. She then took a job as an archive assistant and did a very expensive post graduate course in archives and records management. The career statistics are available from the degree website and the professional body for archivists website - they aren't great. She's still did it. After the postgrad all she could get was a three month contract writing catalogue records for a handful of digitised archives. Then, she got a job in a specialised library doing archives, but the job was only two days a week. That is common in that line of work. She's abandoned working in the field now, and i'm not even sure what she's doing.

You are assuming that any young person or indeed mature adult wants to listen. Most people believe they can buck the trend with something and make it work.

Any student who requires this amount of information spelling out shouldn't be wasting money on university, full stop. They're unemployable as a graduate because they're unmotivated idiots who can't use Google, not because the university failed to provide unnecessary information.

We often use the gym analogy for fees. You pay to attend but we can't guarantee results (a first), that's up to you.

Same goes for outcomes after graduation. Some people will be olympic medalists, some will do the odd park run.

In days gone by, a degree used to show that you had a certain academic ability, and academic skills etc. This opened doors for you. Then someone introduced degrees for all, and it became devalued.

@Gateappreciation Well several people opened the doors. Firstly John Major in 1992. Although many universities had been built in the 50s and 60s, in 1992, the polys, colleges of HE, art colleges and teacher training colleges etc could become universities - and did. Nice big fat salaries and status awaited! This led to the massive expansion of degrees and just about every profession was now degree based - eg nursing, primary school teaching, midwifery etc. Students on degree courses rocketed.

Then we had the cap on student recruitment lifted, and this was Cameron govt in 2023/14. Another huge expansion and building programme which no one could have failed to notice. It became less competitive to go snd grade requirements were pretty low due to needing bums on seats.

So yes, “people” have been responsible and not just politicians , university vice chancellor’s too, as unlimited expansion brought money and status. But then the state could not afford it so tuition fees were introduced and with the Cameron expansion came the £9000 fees - tripled from the previous level. But - the degree educated working populstion has nudged up to the 50% that Tony Blair sought although it’s around 36% of school leavers going to university.

The effect has been to devalue degrees but parents still seem to think their dc are elite if they get one, even from a bottom tier university. This is why, for many, it’s not leading to the riches expected.

There’s now a big move away from some degrees because they are seen as a self indulgent luxury. The student is no better off for doing the degree. The IFS did a big study on this around 6 years ago. Medical degrees give the best return on the outlay. Which is interesting as doctors moan about pay more than anyone else, apart from some teachers, but they are nowhere near top of the value for money table if they have an education degree.

I think doing what you want for the love of it suits some but often it’s not leading to a better job in terms of pay and often these dc are very slow to think about a career. They don’t know what their English degree leads to. Hence the growth in vocational degrees and now we have way too many of them for the jobs available so they don’t get what they want either. It’s a bit of a big expensive mess really!

This is categorically incorrect.

There are a significant number of non vocational degrees which are valued by employers. This is because we have a skills based labour market.
Every year the Institute of Student Employers (ISE) ask graduate recruiters what they’re looking for when recruiting graduates. They list skills such a communication skills, critical thinking, AI literacy and adaptability. These are all skills which can be developed across a wide range of non vocational degrees.

It’s well known that accounting firms target history graduates because they tend to have the skills which make a good accountant.

I am a non vocational graduate. I got 2.1 from London University- it never helped me get a post in the whole course of my career, I am now 64 years old.
" it is well known" is very much trumped by actual experience- if you were correct why would graduate unemployment be so high?